Jesus: a discussion.
This is to discuss a little more without choking up the Hero thread, as VegHead hinted at .
So, continuing on from the hero thread.....
Regarding the epistles and the credibility of the "evidence" from that era:
"Saint Saul And His Letters
Having eliminated the OT and the gospels from the list of possible biblical "evidences" of the existence of Jesus, we are left with the so-called epistles.
At first blush, we might think that these epistles - some of which are by far the oldest parts of the NT, having been composed at least 30 years before the oldest gospel - would provide us with the most reliable information on Jesus. Well, so much for blushes. The oldest letters are the letters of St. Saul - the man who, after losing his mind, changed his name to Paul. Before going into details, we must point out right away, before we forget, that St. Saul's testimony can be ignored quite safely, if what he tells us is true, namely, that he never met Jesus "in the flesh," but rather saw him only in a vision he had during what appears to have been an epileptic seizure. No court of law would accept visions as evidence, and neither should we."
I didn't want to post the whole article, it's a little lengthy but there is good justification, based on rational discussion and research, that much of the "evidence" from outside sources of that time were later in actuality or at a minimum, highly questionable. The rest can be read at http://www.atheists.org/christianity/didjesusexist.html.
sorry I don't know how to imbed links yet.
That's where we differ. I do believe there is some truth to the ancient stories of the world but some has been warped over time.
The point I'm trying to make about the buildings, statues etc is that takes manpower, time and resources to make them. People wouldn't of done that if it was their imagination. It doesn't make sense.
The Egyptian pharoahs built pyramids! Vanity can get buildings built without one shred of imagination. The pharoah knew for 100% certain that he/she wasn't a god, but the slaves were kept ignorant to that fact and in return the lie was propogated and BAM! one of the seventh wonders of the ancient world popped up.
Unless of course the aliens put them there......... :o
The pyramids don't count because they weren't dedicated to gods and goddesses in the first place.
No aliens made us descended from monkeys.
That's where we differ. I do believe there is some truth to the ancient stories of the world but some has been warped over time.
The point I'm trying to make about the buildings, statues etc is that takes manpower, time and resources to make them. People wouldn't of done that if it was their imagination. It doesn't make sense.
The Egyptian pharoahs built pyramids! Vanity can get buildings built without one shred of imagination. The pharoah knew for 100% certain that he/she wasn't a god, but the slaves were kept ignorant to that fact and in return the lie was propogated and BAM! one of the seventh wonders of the ancient world popped up.
Unless of course the aliens put them there......... :o
The pyramids don't count because they weren't dedicated to gods and goddesses in the first place.
No aliens made us descended from monkeys.
I guess I don't really understand how the art argument "proves" that god must be real... :-\ If a person is passionate enough about something, they'll spend time on it. How many poets have written poems about a person they were in love with, while never actually being able to be with that person? Countless! There are so many "love" poems about unrequited love. This shows passion--not that the love was real or that anything ever came of it.
With religious art, I would apply the same argument. If someone truly believed in God/Christianity/etc., they could certainly be passionate enough about it to create & dedicate art to that belief... It doesn't prove that it's real; just that their passion for it is.
That's where we differ. I do believe there is some truth to the ancient stories of the world but some has been warped over time.
The point I'm trying to make about the buildings, statues etc is that takes manpower, time and resources to make them. People wouldn't of done that if it was their imagination. It doesn't make sense.
The Egyptian pharoahs built pyramids! Vanity can get buildings built without one shred of imagination. The pharoah knew for 100% certain that he/she wasn't a god, but the slaves were kept ignorant to that fact and in return the lie was propogated and BAM! one of the seventh wonders of the ancient world popped up.
Unless of course the aliens put them there......... :o
The pyramids don't count because they weren't dedicated to gods and goddesses in the first place.
No aliens made us descended from monkeys.
I guess I don't really understand how the art argument "proves" that god must be real... :-\ If a person is passionate enough about something, they'll spend time on it. How many poets have written poems about a person they were in love with, while never actually being able to be with that person? Countless! There are so many "love" poems about unrequited love. This shows passion--not that the love was real or that anything ever came of it.
With religious art, I would apply the same argument. If someone truly believed in God/Christianity/etc., they could certainly be passionate enough about it to create & dedicate art to that belief... It doesn't prove that it's real; just that their passion for it is.
First you are entitled to your opinion but even then I don't think so it's not enough "to make it"
a country's religion.
I guess I don't really understand how the art argument "proves" that god must be real... :-\ If a person is passionate enough about something, they'll spend time on it. How many poets have written poems about a person they were in love with, while never actually being able to be with that person? Countless! There are so many "love" poems about unrequited love. This shows passion--not that the love was real or that anything ever came of it.
With religious art, I would apply the same argument. If someone truly believed in God/Christianity/etc., they could certainly be passionate enough about it to create & dedicate art to that belief... It doesn't prove that it's real; just that their passion for it is.
First you are entitled to your opinion but even then I don't think so it's not enough "to make it"
a country's religion.
Well, we can agree to disagree. :) But I don't think something has to be true for a lot of people to subscribe to it... Think of how many people believe that eating meat is okay/doesn't harm the environment/is healthy. :o Lots & lots. Also, there are a lot of Jewish people who strongly believe in their faith. Lots of Muslims, too. Would you say that they are "right" & know the true religion? A lot of people are passionate about what they believe in--it doesn't make it true.
I also wonder about what everyone here thinks of "miracles" or things that have absolutely no scientific answer themselves but still happened... I'll be the first to admit that when I hear somebody proclaiming a miracle I start to try to figure out how it really happened--Im'm just a natural skeptic......BUT I've had a few experiences in my life that are just so far beyond being able to explain them...that i have no choice but to believe that God made it happen...You know? Like whole organs growing back on their own sort of thing...I'm sure you guys have hear of some good miracles...what do you think they are?
Miracles: here is my stance on them. People's perception of miracles are subjective, i.e. someone getting miraculosuly cured ... I tend to believe that is their DNA fighting back and winning. Others believe its god.
Personally, I have never had an personal, mystical experiences. So, I can't comment on that. I can only comment from observation or reading about miracles in others.
There was a story in the paper, a few months back, not sure if anyone here saw it. A female shark in a tank, alone, with no other male sharks gave birth to a baby shark. She had NEVER had any contact with male sharks. All the DNA of the baby shark came from the mom.
So, kind of like the immaculate conception ... but with a shark.
Biologists have seen this happen in a variety of species. Though, this is the first time in such a complex one. The body's desire to reproduce is so overwhelming that, when it senses being faced with extinction (as a shark, all alone, in an aquarium would), the body will reproduce. Without needing sperm. Not every individual species will do this. As we have various genes, and in some the desire for reproduction is stronger than in others.
Biology is one of THE most powerful thing ever. Our primitive drives still affect us in numerous ways, even though many people won't admit that. So, when I see a "miracle" happen or I hear about one in terms of being cured of a disease ... that, to me, is the body fighting for survival. Some people have better genes for that than others. This is why not everyone has a spontaneous healing or recovery happy.
Again, just my theory.
I wanted to touch upon people building things out of their imaginations. While I respect the fact that you believe this isn't so ... as a fiction writer, who will marry a designer - both of us create things straight from our imaginations. Many sculptors and artists do this as well. They create what they believe. The Greeks and Romans, at the time, weren't creating their imagination ... they were creating their belief system, their values, their model for the world. To them, it was very much real. Just as a sculptor paints what he belives in every painting. Just as a writer writes her/his own belief system throughout his writing.
Again, just my opinion, and I understand we all have different ones. Which is good. World would be boring otherwise!
I think your belief/disbelief is your truth. Goes with one of my favourite quotes (from the Manic Street Preachers song "Faster"):
"I know I believe in nothing but it is my nothing!"
(I'm very slightly agnostic btw - whatever that means) :) :-X ::)
Regarding the virgin birth thing - all religions are covered in layer upon layer of myth. Jesus was not the only one who was supposed to have been conceived immaculately - Adonis, Mithras, Ate, Dionysus spring to mind off thetop of my head. It's entirely possible that the myth simply got transferred because he claimed divinity (if he infact did). The point with Jesus - I think anyway - was that his message was so different. His was a message of love unlike the rest of them. The God I believe in created all the heavens and the earth and everything in between and beyond - so a wee matter like a virgin birth would scarcely be beyond his powers. But, whether or not he was the actual 'biological' son of God is, to me, rather irrelevant (and I am speaking as a Christian here - though definitely not a Bush-type, born again). Jesus was put on this earth/was inspired once he was old enough to show us how to live because we were (and are) getting it wrong. That does not by any means mean that I condone everything that has been done in his name since. Men/Man is a very tribal animal and most, if not all, religious conflict in the world is basically tribal warfare and jockeying for the best position politically and economically.
However, if myth and ritual help some people to believe and understand, I don't see the harm as long as we don't neglect the fundamentals.
That's where we differ. I do believe there is some truth to the ancient stories of the world but some has been warped over time.
The point I'm trying to make about the buildings, statues etc is that takes manpower, time and resources to make them. People wouldn't of done that if it was their imagination. It doesn't make sense.
The Egyptian pharoahs built pyramids! Vanity can get buildings built without one shred of imagination. The pharoah knew for 100% certain that he/she wasn't a god, but the slaves were kept ignorant to that fact and in return the lie was propogated and BAM! one of the seventh wonders of the ancient world popped up.
Unless of course the aliens put them there......... :o
The pyramids don't count because they weren't dedicated to gods and goddesses in the first place.
No aliens made us descended from monkeys.
I guess I don't really understand how the art argument "proves" that god must be real... :-\ If a person is passionate enough about something, they'll spend time on it. How many poets have written poems about a person they were in love with, while never actually being able to be with that person? Countless! There are so many "love" poems about unrequited love. This shows passion--not that the love was real or that anything ever came of it.
With religious art, I would apply the same argument. If someone truly believed in God/Christianity/etc., they could certainly be passionate enough about it to create & dedicate art to that belief... It doesn't prove that it's real; just that their passion for it is.
But that person is real though.(I'm not trying to make you believe in god remember that ok. That's not my point.)What I am trying to prove is people don't build things to their imagination.
I am not sure about the "people don't build things out of their imagination" comment. Leonardo DaVinci almost built the first helicopter, wasn't that from his imagination? What about the kids who build things with their mashed potatos, or sandcastles, or the ice sculptures, or things made from granite? There are paintings, and sculptures and all kinds of stuff built from the imagination, just because people don't build huge structures today, doesn't mean people in the past didn't. Things were a lot differnt then.
As far as the Mary-Virgin thing? I have read that part of the bible and when I read the term "virgin" is seemed out of context to me, as if somebody just added that in there as an after thought. I mean, think about it, her and this guy Joseph was engaged to be wed, they travel in the wilderness...alone...and then suddenly she turnes out preggers...hmmmm...and he claims she is a virgin...oh a miracle...because if it was found out at that time that they had pre-marital sex it would ruin his standing in society, and she would tarnish her own reputation and be brandid a whore, they probably wouldn't be allowed to be wed, and if they were truely in love...My point it, it sounds like they lied about it, passed it off as some kind of miracle, and at that time people were gullible and largely uneducated, and if that couple were very well respected, then people would probably believe them, and to protect their social standing it would be written down as a miracle, when it really wasn't. I think it was recorded as a miracle to for political reasons. How many times has that happened?
As far as the Mary-Virgin thing? I have read that part of the bible and when I read the term "virgin" is seemed out of context to me, as if somebody just added that in there as an after thought. I mean, think about it, her and this guy Joseph was engaged to be wed, they travel in the wilderness...alone...and then suddenly she turnes out preggers...hmmmm...and he claims she is a virgin...oh a miracle...because if it was found out at that time that they had pre-marital sex it would ruin his standing in society, and she would tarnish her own reputation and be brandid a whore, they probably wouldn't be allowed to be wed, and if they were truely in love...My point it, it sounds like they lied about it, passed it off as some kind of miracle, and at that time people were gullible and largely uneducated, and if that couple were very well respected, then people would probably believe them, and to protect their social standing it would be written down as a miracle, when it really wasn't. I think it was recorded as a miracle to for political reasons. How many times has that happened?
I so agree! I didn't know quite how to phrase this without sounding offensive, but you did a great job, I think! I do not think anyone is "dumb" for believing this story, but to me, it is such an obvious hoax! It would be SO easy to lie about something like that, and Mary & Joseph had every reason in the world to do so... :-\
I am not sure about the "people don't build things out of their imagination" comment. Leonardo DaVinci almost built the first helicopter, wasn't that from his imagination? What about the kids who build things with their mashed potatos, or sandcastles, or the ice sculptures, or things made from granite? There are paintings, and sculptures and all kinds of stuff built from the imagination, just because people don't build huge structures today, doesn't mean people in the past didn't. Things were a lot differnt then.
As far as the Mary-Virgin thing? I have read that part of the bible and when I read the term "virgin" is seemed out of context to me, as if somebody just added that in there as an after thought. I mean, think about it, her and this guy Joseph was engaged to be wed, they travel in the wilderness...alone...and then suddenly she turnes out preggers...hmmmm...and he claims she is a virgin...oh a miracle...because if it was found out at that time that they had pre-marital sex it would ruin his standing in society, and she would tarnish her own reputation and be brandid a whore, they probably wouldn't be allowed to be wed, and if they were truely in love...My point it, it sounds like they lied about it, passed it off as some kind of miracle, and at that time people were gullible and largely uneducated, and if that couple were very well respected, then people would probably believe them, and to protect their social standing it would be written down as a miracle, when it really wasn't. I think it was recorded as a miracle to for political reasons. How many times has that happened?
I don't understand what you are saying. People do build things out of their imagination but not to their imagination.
I think that I may not understand what you are saying. To their imagination rather than from their imagination? I don't get it.
Exactly
would any of you be interested in book titles about the topics of historical l and scientific "proof" of Jesus/the Bible/creation...etc? I don't want to seem like I'm pedaling anything or being pushy...but there were a few books in particular that I found profoundly helpful in answering some of these very same questions and concerns that you guys have...I'm not really the type to just believe something because I've been told to believe it either...and I've done a lot of personal research on the topic...I'd like to share, but only if you guys are interested in that...
I would definitely be interested. (^_^) I like reading both side's arguments and would appreciate you sharing what you've found in your research.
I have to say, though, that I highly doubt these sources can accurately explain away, what is for me, the most damning argument against Christian mythology: the evidence that lies in the geologic column. There are plenty more inaccuracies and implausibilities in the Bible, but many modern day Christians now see much of the stories as fables, many others as exaggerations or somehow "taken out of context", and they just completely dismiss the inconsistencies in the timeline. I don't understand this excuse of most of the Bible while still maintaining faith in the god it promotes and Creationism, but it is personal. It is a matter of faith, and I don't need to understand it.
However, if one is to give any weight to science, Creationism has been absolutely disproved by the geologic column. Homo sapiens did not predate other animals. In fact, archaic H. sapiens only came in roughly 200,000 years ago (the oldest fossil remains, I believe, are around 160,000 years old(?)). There are no human remains for the billions of years the earth existed before this. None.
The oldest rocks contained no fossils, then came simple sea creatures, then more complex ones (like fish), then life on land, then reptiles, then other mammals,... and finally humans. This blows a huge hole through Christian Mythology.
I have only ever heard two arguments that attempted to dispute the evidence or explain it away: one "scientific", one superstitious- both pretty ridiculous.
The first was the theory that the column was actually formed very rapidly, by the flood that, supposedly, drowned the world. To subscribe to this theory, you have to believe that the water neatly laid creatures and sediment down in an organized fashion that corresponded to their species.
Even if you can wrap your head around that (saying, maybe, that God wanted to bury them with their friends? (~_^)), the dating of the fossils renders it nonsensical. Not only does each layer show a progression through a very very long period of time, each encompasses creatures that are relative to the atmosphere at that time (such as the lung capacity of land-dwellers and the amt of oxygen in the air).
This theory is, therefor, completely implausible.
The second theory was: "Could it beeeee... SATAN?!?!" (Sorry, had a small SNL church lady flashback there.)
Some say Satan arranged the species in the geologic column, in order to trick us. Even if you believe in Satan, don't you have to perceive him in the light of the Bible? According to the scriptures, Satan is a "fallen" angel that rebelled against God. He apparently has powers to send plagues, collect souls that deny God, etc. (all with God's permission). He, however, was never portrayed as omniscient. How could he have known that humankind would dig through the earth to find evidence? How could he have known that we would develop the knowledge/techniques of carbon/radiometric dating, informing his decision to tamper with the evidence accordingly?
There is much I want to say on this subject...my own thoughts...but for now...I'll stay out of this (by posting my own thoughts which run deep).
Though I do have questions for those believers.....
For those that think the bible "speaks" about the "good".....and how it is a way one should live their life....read this:
http://ffrf.org/timely/abcsbible.php
Most pick out the "good" that can be taught by the bible...and by following jesus....yet they never explain "these" parts of the bible.....about the "stoning"...the "raping"....etc.....it's all there...all in the "bible".....who decided what "laws" we must follow, and what is barbaric? Those rules/laws to be left out and "not" followed?.....is it someone that takes money every week from his congregation so he can drive a Lexus?......(like the Pastor that lives in my own high end rural subdivision...that drives a brand new Lexus SUV.....while he takes money every week from those that live in trailors)?...Why does he not live simply?....and "give" more than he "takes.....?
If you believe...and take every word for "truth"...and truly believe the bible is how we shoud all live our lives....then...please...please...explain these passages listed in the above link...
Funny how as time has moved forward....these passages have been eliminated from those "paid"..."salary taking preachers"....from their sermons.....
-these are not "made up"....they are ALL in the bible.....so....if you believe in it....and follow the laws preached......why are these not followed?....
-dave
There is much I want to say on this subject...my own thoughts...but for now...I'll stay out of this (by posting my own thoughts which run deep).
Though I do have questions for those believers.....
For those that think the bible "speaks" about the "good".....and how it is a way one should live their life....read this:
http://ffrf.org/timely/abcsbible.php
Most pick out the "good" that can be taught by the bible...and by following jesus....yet they never explain "these" parts of the bible.....about the "stoning"...the "raping"....etc.....it's all there...all in the "bible".....who decided what "laws" we must follow, and what is barbaric? Those rules/laws to be left out and "not" followed?.....is it someone that takes money every week from his congregation so he can drive a Lexus?......(like the Pastor that lives in my own high end rural subdivision...that drives a brand new Lexus SUV.....while he takes money every week from those that live in trailors)?...Why does he not live simply?....and "give" more than he "takes.....?
If you believe...and take every word for "truth"...and the truly believe the bible is how we shoud all live our lives....then...please...please...explain these passages listed in the above link...
Funny how as time has moved forward....these passages have been eliminated from those "paid"..."salary taking preachers"....from their sermons.....
-these are not "made up"....they are ALL in the bible.....so....if you believe in it....and follow the laws preached......why are these not followed?....
-dave
Enlightening site. Been friends with them on myspace for a while now.
Exactly
The thing is... If you believe something hard enough, it's not to your imagination in your own opinion. People would not be thinking, "I am building this statue to the god in my mind." Rather, they'd be thinking, "I am building this statue to God." But just because they believe that God is real doesn't mean it is in actuality... Plenty of people believe things (and don't consider them to be in their imagination) without it being the actual truth!
Okay, this is the only thread I have read that went completely over my head.
The whole To their imagination rather than From their imagination really has me scratching my head. Is it a philosophy thing? If it is then I think I understand, I learned years ago that philosophy makes no sense.
So in a meager attempt to understand: It is being proposed that if one belives in something hard enough then that makes it real? Or if someone imagines something hard enough then that makes it real? If that was the case then I would be a vampire because when I was young I would imagine that I was one and really really wanted to be one. But alas, Anne Rice's books are still just fiction, and I am still a mere mortal.
I don't see the difference between to or from one's imagination. Please enlighten me! :)
The whole To their imagination rather than From their imagination really has me scratching my head. Is it a philosophy thing? If it is then I think I understand, I learned years ago that philosophy makes no sense.
SnowQueen, in this thread, I don't think it's philosophy that isn't making sense.
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