Jesus: a discussion.
This is to discuss a little more without choking up the Hero thread, as VegHead hinted at .
So, continuing on from the hero thread.....
Regarding the epistles and the credibility of the "evidence" from that era:
"Saint Saul And His Letters
Having eliminated the OT and the gospels from the list of possible biblical "evidences" of the existence of Jesus, we are left with the so-called epistles.
At first blush, we might think that these epistles - some of which are by far the oldest parts of the NT, having been composed at least 30 years before the oldest gospel - would provide us with the most reliable information on Jesus. Well, so much for blushes. The oldest letters are the letters of St. Saul - the man who, after losing his mind, changed his name to Paul. Before going into details, we must point out right away, before we forget, that St. Saul's testimony can be ignored quite safely, if what he tells us is true, namely, that he never met Jesus "in the flesh," but rather saw him only in a vision he had during what appears to have been an epileptic seizure. No court of law would accept visions as evidence, and neither should we."
I didn't want to post the whole article, it's a little lengthy but there is good justification, based on rational discussion and research, that much of the "evidence" from outside sources of that time were later in actuality or at a minimum, highly questionable. The rest can be read at http://www.atheists.org/christianity/didjesusexist.html.
sorry I don't know how to imbed links yet.
This is what I think about Jesus. I think he existed but whether was a mortal or an immortal I think he was immortal.
Whether he was a mortal skilled in magic and he did some miracles and the people made him into the messiah it could be also. I say this because of the case when he made that blind man see. Didn't he put some kind of herbs on the eyes? I thought I read that. I believe at that time people could've known about ancient herbs in helping people.
But then again maybe an immortal only knows that kind of knowledge.
The thing that convinces me is raising the dead. Either he had the power to do it or the person who he raised wasn't what he seemed to meaning he was an immortal as well.
But you got to think though about Jesus's message.It's a message of hope. But he also tells you exactly what you want to hear. There is life after death.
Was it a bunch a people and they created a new religion?
Was Jesus a messenger of hope but a mortal?
Or was he an immortal and he was a messenger of hope?
I believe the third one.
I believe science is 99% good not 100% though. They are very bigoted towards religion they want to be the head honcho to who everybody listens to. They shouldn't do that.
There some religious zealots out there to but science should know better.
I'm an atheist. I think people have a tendency to fill in the gaps with God. In science this is called "god of the gaps." 1000 years ago, when people heard thunder and did not know what it was, they explained it with gods. Now, we don't know what life is or how we got here ... so we explain it with god. Eventually, I think we'll figure all of that out too.
But, I think religion works differently. People who believe don't need evidence, nor do they particularly want evidence ... it's all hinged on faith. I spent many years in Catholic private schools ... I think the whole faith thing is how it's supposed to work, i.e. "God works in mysterious ways, and we must have faith until one day we die and see the big plan He has for the world." Plus, it's a comforting story - that there is life after death. It helps people transition better.
My mind is that of a scientist, I don't understand faith/belief without evidence. For instance, I have faith in myself and my abilities because I have proven to myself, over time, that I get things done, reach my goals, etc. That's my only understanding of faith. So, I could be wrong on my interpretation of religion and how it affects people.
I know with my parents - it's a deep, inner belief. I mean, they REALLY believe. And, nothing, no amount of logic will deter them from that. I can't understand that as I'm unable to believe without sufficient proof. I've always been like this - since being a child.
However, I think a personal belief system is individual. If it allows people to live happily and in a way that fulfills them, then there is nothing wrong with that. I never try to convince others of my stance ... so long as they don't deliver pamphlets to my door convincing me of theirs. ;)
To Ecstatic
Do you really think people would build buildings, monuments, statues to their imagination in the olden days?
And remember I'm not trying to convince you of religion. I would never do that. I don't like it if someone does it to me I don't do it to anyone else.
My point is that's a prejudgement saying people heard thunder and they didn't know what it was.
I didn't want to post the whole article, it's a little lengthy but there is good justification, based on rational discussion and research, that much of the "evidence" from outside sources of that time were later in actuality or at a minimum, highly questionable. The rest can be read at http://www.atheists.org/christianity/didjesusexist.html.
sorry I don't know how to imbed links yet.
I agree the man's existence should not be blindly accepted. Everything should be questioned, and I think your research is commendable. However, I think there is credence to Cephi's argument that Jesus was not a very influential figure until his execution (and really many many years after that), so it is not surprising their is little to no documentation of him from that time... and also that questionable evidence of existence somewhat outweighs no evidence of nonexistence. (Excuse the mangled phrasing.)
I have to agree that it is much more likely that the mythology was built around a real person (however mad or delusional), rather than a phantom or figure of imagination. That does not mean that he did exist, just that it is more likely than not.
To Ecstatic
Do you really think people would build buildings, monuments, statues to their imagination in the olden days?
And remember I'm not trying to convince you of religion. I would never do that. I don't like it if someone does it to me I don't do it to anyone else.
My point is that's a prejudgement saying people heard thunder and they didn't know what it was.
I'm not sure I understand the question. They did build statues, buildings, monuments, etc., from their imagination. I don't think Zeus or Afrodite or any of the gods of which there are numerous statues actually existed. Unlike for Jesus (who I do think was a real historial figure) there is no evidence that Zeus walked around, changing shapes, and fornicating with everything he saw in sight. Not that there is anything wrong with creating things from the imagination - I mean, they made some incredible pieces of art. Superb.
And, at one point, people had no idea what thunder was, where it came from, etc. There are numrous stories from the Greeks and Romans as to who or what was making all that noise.
So, I'm not really sure what you're asking. :-[
That's where we differ. I do believe there is some truth to the ancient stories of the world but some has been warped over time.
The point I'm trying to make about the buildings, statues etc is that takes manpower, time and resources to make them. People wouldn't of done that if it was their imagination. It doesn't make sense.
I am with you Ecstatic, all the way. For me to believe something I need firm hard evidence, logic, mathematics are the standards that I live by. But I am an engineer, grew up as a woman of science, you would expect as much from me.
Evolution is more ligical than creationism is becuase evolution follows a clear logical path, and there is firm hard evidence of evolution where there is none for creation, the same is true for almost all religious concepts.
But if a person finds peace and contentment in relgion then I am happy for them and...honestly envious. When you look at the world in a purely logical way, it looses beauty, life looses meaning, I am not alive, I am just chemical reactions that have to happen in an exact way becuase if they were to be disrupted so much to the point that they would cease, then I would no longer be alive. So there is drawbacks to both sides, being "faithful" means to tend to be closed minded and resist learning new things. That is also sad.
I am with you Ecstatic, all the way. For me to believe something I need firm hard evidence, logic, mathematics are the standards that I live by. But I am an engineer, grew up as a woman of science, you would expect as much from me.
Evolution is more ligical than creationism is becuase evolution follows a clear logical path, and there is firm hard evidence of evolution where there is none for creation, the same is true for almost all religious concepts.
But if a person finds peace and contentment in relgion then I am happy for them and...honestly envious. When you look at the world in a purely logical way, it looses beauty, life looses meaning, I am not alive, I am just chemical reactions that have to happen in an exact way becuase if they were to be disrupted so much to the point that they would cease, then I would no longer be alive. So there is drawbacks to both sides, being "faithful" means to tend to be closed minded and resist learning new things. That is also sad.
About the last sentence the same thing can be said about atheists.
To Ecstatic
Do you really think people would build buildings, monuments, statues to their imagination in the olden days?
And remember I'm not trying to convince you of religion. I would never do that. I don't like it if someone does it to me I don't do it to anyone else.
My point is that's a prejudgement saying people heard thunder and they didn't know what it was.
I'm not sure I understand the question. They did build statues, buildings, monuments, etc., from their imagination. I don't think Zeus or Afrodite or any of the gods of which there are numerous statues actually existed. Unlike for Jesus (who I do think was a real historial figure) there is no evidence that Zeus walked around, changing shapes, and fornicating with everything he saw in sight. Not that there is anything wrong with creating things from the imagination - I mean, they made some incredible pieces of art. Superb.
And, at one point, people had no idea what thunder was, where it came from, etc. There are numrous stories from the Greeks and Romans as to who or what was making all that noise.
So, I'm not really sure what you're asking. :-[
I am sure you do believe that since science is "everything". Just to let you know to say the Greeks believed in hot air is very offensive to me.
But if a person finds peace and contentment in relgion then I am happy for them and...honestly envious. When you look at the world in a purely logical way, it looses beauty, life looses meaning, I am not alive, I am just chemical reactions that have to happen in an exact way becuase if they were to be disrupted so much to the point that they would cease, then I would no longer be alive.
I disagree completely, just from my own experience. I am an atheist. However, after I "let go of god" & the idea that maybe we were created by "someone," life became so much more beautiful to me. The fact that mountains were formed by the earth shifting & changing, etc. (to completely over-simplify) is so incredible to me. I appreciate everyone in my life a trillion times more, because I know that the only time I get with them is during our time on earth. There is no afterlife in my mind, so I better make the absolute most of this life right now. I am truly a happier, more understanding, more accepting, more appreciative person since admitting to myself that I don't believe in god. I don't have a lot of time to enjoy everything I love, and life truly is too short to sweat the small stuff. :)
I am sure you do believe that since science is "everything". Just to let you know to say the Greeks believed in hot air is very offensive to me.
Well, it's not everything. There are flaws. But, I do think logic and reason yields the best answers.
However, I did not mean to be offensive or attack anyone's beliefs. Just stating my opinion on things. If it was offensive to you, I apologize.
I disagree completely, just from my own experience. I am an atheist. However, after I "let go of god" & the idea that maybe we were created by "someone," life became so much more beautiful to me. The fact that mountains were formed by the earth shifting & changing, etc. (to completely over-simplify) is so incredible to me. I appreciate everyone in my life a trillion times more, because I know that the only time I get with them is during our time on earth. There is no afterlife in my mind, so I better make the absolute most of this life right now. I am truly a happier, more understanding, more accepting, more appreciative person since admitting to myself that I don't believe in god. I don't have a lot of time to enjoy everything I love, and life truly is too short to sweat the small stuff. :)
Are we the same person? ;) ;D I think the same exact thing! I studied biology because life was endlessly fascinating and beautiful to me. Flowers have become no less "holy" to me even though I know about photosynthesis, and how it all works.
I want to know more, delve deeper into the mystery of life!
JessaCita,
You have a really interesting point that I hadn't thought of before. I am not really sure if I believe in God or not, God to me is more like an invisible friend, not really the creater of all things. But I don't believe in an afterlife, the thought of living forever is terrifying to me. Since I live with Bi-polar disorder and have since I started puberty 15 years ago, I look forward to the day when I can finally rest and not feel emotions anymore. But seing the beauty in the world because I will die someday is not really a way I have ever looked at it. However, I am an amature photograher and look at things with a photographer's eyes so in a way I guess...Like I see a bee on a white flower and thing, wow what contrast, look at the blue sky and the snow white mountain peak, that would make an excellent photo with a filter to get rid of the haze...
This is a really interesting thread, so many people have so many different opinions. I am a "how do things work?" person to the extreme, and sociology and psychology have always been subjects interesting to me (along with neurology, engines, biology, electricity...and so forth)...so keep writing everybody!
Are we the same person? ;) ;D I think the same exact thing! I studied biology because life was endlessly fascinating and beautiful to me. Flowers have become no less "holy" to me even though I know about photosynthesis, and how it all works.
I want to know more, delve deeper into the mystery of life!
;D I agree! I love that stuff & I am also not even a very scientific-minded person. I have always been terrible at math, never cared much for chemistry & that sort of thing, and I tend to think with my heart more than my brain. Even so, I suppose I am pretty logical (as opposed to science-minded) because I have a difficult time making sense out of something that seems so completely against logic (such as god).
And I have been told that maybe I just don't have an ability to trust people or have faith. :-\ No. Not at all. But I need some evidence to base that faith on. For example, if a man told me he loved me but was disrespectful toward me, this would go against logic & I could make the conclusion that he was lying/didn't mean what he said. If someone says he loves me & treats me in a way that showcases this statement, I can then believe & have faith in the fact that he'll continue to behave this way. You know what I mean? I'm having a hard time putting it into words... ::) I guess what I'm trying to say is that I have faith in things, as long as there is some sort of logic & fact to back it up. To me, the Bible is not logical & is not based on fact. ??? And I truly mean no disrespect to anyone who disagrees with me!
Jesus lived his life in a cheap motel on the edge of Route 66, yeah.
I still don't really know where I stand on Penn & Teller, but I thought this pertained to this discussion...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RV46fsmx6E&mode=related&search=
I like this episode a lot, but these two also called veg*ns "bullshit" in an episode about food... ::) So I guess I like a lot of what they have to say, but not everything! I like this, though. :)
would any of you be interested in book titles about the topics of historical l and scientific "proof" of Jesus/the Bible/creation...etc? I don't want to seem like I'm pedaling anything or being pushy...but there were a few books in particular that I found profoundly helpful in answering some of these very same questions and concerns that you guys have...I'm not really the type to just believe something because I've been told to believe it either...and I've done a lot of personal research on the topic...I'd like to share, but only if you guys are interested in that...
I also wonder about what everyone here thinks of "miracles" or things that have absolutely no scientific answer themselves but still happened... I'll be the first to admit that when I hear somebody proclaiming a miracle I start to try to figure out how it really happened--Im'm just a natural skeptic......BUT I've had a few experiences in my life that are just so far beyond being able to explain them...that i have no choice but to believe that God made it happen...You know? Like whole organs growing back on their own sort of thing...I'm sure you guys have hear of some good miracles...what do you think they are?
That's where we differ. I do believe there is some truth to the ancient stories of the world but some has been warped over time.
The point I'm trying to make about the buildings, statues etc is that takes manpower, time and resources to make them. People wouldn't of done that if it was their imagination. It doesn't make sense.
The Egyptian pharoahs built pyramids! Vanity can get buildings built without one shred of imagination. The pharoah knew for 100% certain that he/she wasn't a god, but the slaves were kept ignorant to that fact and in return the lie was propogated and BAM! one of the seventh wonders of the ancient world popped up.
Unless of course the aliens put them there......... :o
Great points, all. Now this leads to a question then, starting from the beginning. Do virgins (mammals) have babies? As has been posted a few times above, the answer is either definately no or unlikely. Lizards do procreate asexually when the need arises (back me up somebody with the Biology) but all the babies are female when this occurs. Other than that, there isn't any case since that has actually been "immaculate"; they all tend to have some, ahem, sausage in the recipe at one time or another. But there are dozens of other virgin birth stories that predate the Jesus myth. Hmmmmm, what makes his so real and theirs so much a lie? Want does.
would any of you be interested in book titles about the topics of historical l and scientific "proof" of Jesus/the Bible/creation...etc? I don't want to seem like I'm pedaling anything or being pushy...but there were a few books in particular that I found profoundly helpful in answering some of these very same questions and concerns that you guys have...I'm not really the type to just believe something because I've been told to believe it either...and I've done a lot of personal research on the topic...I'd like to share, but only if you guys are interested in that...
I also wonder about what everyone here thinks of "miracles" or things that have absolutely no scientific answer themselves but still happened... I'll be the first to admit that when I hear somebody proclaiming a miracle I start to try to figure out how it really happened--Im'm just a natural skeptic......BUT I've had a few experiences in my life that are just so far beyond being able to explain them...that i have no choice but to believe that God made it happen...You know? Like whole organs growing back on their own sort of thing...I'm sure you guys have hear of some good miracles...what do you think they are?
I would not personally be interested in those readings, Zealia, but that should be of no personal offense to you! :) I have taken many religion, philosophy & history classes, participated in lots of discussions & read a lot on these topics. In fact, I love reading about religion & I often do! But I have come to the conclusion that I simply do not believe.
In regards to miracles, I don't pretend to understand them. I think that there are things no one will ever be able to explain, but that doesn't mean that an explanation doesn't exist. I think "miracles" can be encouraging & certainly a positive event, but I do not believe they are an act of a god. I believe we just can't/don't yet understand.
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