Animal Heirarchy: All the Animal Kingdom Created Equal?
So, I was reading the 'Is Honey Vegan' thread, and it seems lots of people put bees on the same level as other members of the animal kingdom. Someone argued something along the lines of: since bees are in the phylum Arthropoda, that makes them equivalent to lobsters, crabs and such.
My first thought was, well yeah, it also puts them on the "same level" as houseflies and fleas (also phylum Arthropoda).
So, I am curious, how many people on this forum don't differentiate between species? I would certainly never want to harm a bee, but I also don't put it on the same level as, say, a cow or a deer.
Please note, I am not asking whether an insects' "well-being" matters or not. I simply am curious how many of you consider insects (and for that matter, what is traditionally known as other "lower" forms of life) on the "same level" as, say mammals, for instance.
I find it hard to believe that some people, if put in a situation where they had to choose between (for instance) the life of a dog and the life of a flea, would have a hard time deciding which one to save.
What about if you had to choose between saving a mouse or a chimpanzee? Again, I think the choice is clear, but I assume some would disagree. I'm just curious to hear opinions. Are all life forms equal?
I think bugs are super cool. That's not to say that I want them around me, and I also don't think they have the capacity to feel emotions. And I HATE cockroaches.
Honestly, I'm not even sure that reptiles and amphibians have the capacity to feel emotions (at least not the way that mammals and birds do). I've had just about every kind of pet, and I really don't think the frogs and lizards recognized humans the way that even my rats do (then again, the hamsters and gerbils didn't seem to recognize specific people either). My rats can tell the difference between strangers and DH and me, and they definitely have personalities and emotions.
For the most part, I have a "live and let live" policy. I won't kill a bug unless I feel threatened by it. Like if there's a poisonous spider in my house I'd kill it, but if it's a huntsman I'll leave it alone (for the record, I live in Australia and we have some scary ass spiders). But if my dog had fleas or ticks I'd do whatever it takes to get rid of them to protect my dog. I also give him pills for intestinal worms...so I definitely value his life more than a tapeworm's.
For a very unlikely hypothetical situation: if my dog was being attacked by a cow, and my only option was to kill the cow or my dog would die, I'd probably kill the cow. If I had a pet cow that was getting attacked by a dog, I'd probably kill the dog. It's more of an issue of where my loyalties are. I love my pets.
I'd never consider getting a pet tapeworm though...my choice of pets probably reflects my idea of heirarchy.
I'm just rambling now. Sorry, it's late.
I'm not really sure what you mean by "same level." Same level of what? I also don't understand why the choice between a mouse and a chimp is clear. Clear based on what? Size? Cognitive abilities?
I don't favor one species over another. A life is a life. It's not for me to decide that one life is more significant than another based simply on size or how similar they are to human beings.
I'm still not sure i get the question, though. By "equivalent," do you mean, deserving equal treatment by human beings? Equally deserving of life?
I would kill a bug before i would kill a cow, for example.
I think it's obvious that there is a hierarchy of preference.
I would not/do not purposely kill any animal. I'm sure that I unintentionally step on bugs on the ground, in the grass, and I'm told I eat a certain number of them in my sleep, but this does not apply to chimps or cows. I don't see why I would be in a position to choose between saving a chimp or a mouse, and I also don't see why it's clear to choose the chimp..
I do not understand how so many can quite easily kill countless mice for scientific research...but could never harm a chimp. They are all living beings on their own right.
"All beings tremble before violence. All fear death. All love life." (Buddha)
This quote is on the shirt I'm wearing today!
I'm not sure where I stand on this spectrum of equality, but it's probably something close to Peter Singer's belief that a being's moral consideration is determined by sentientism. He defines most of what humans do to animals who have the capacity to "feel" as speciesist. If you're interested in reading something a bit more radical, check out Paul Taylor's "Respect for Nature" or the beliefs of biocentrism. Very interesting stuff, yet still controversial in this day and age.
I like this quote by Jeremy Bentham, although it's somewhat overused: "The question is not, 'can they reason?' nor 'can they talk? but, 'can they suffer?'"
I thought it was pretty clear what I meant. Basically, do you value some forms of life more than others.
If I was faced with having to choose between saving a dog's life, or a fleas' life, I would have no problem making a choice. Some apparently would.
So, KISSMEKATE, I'm asking you: flea vs. dog
Which would you choose and why?
P.S. - And when I asked the original question, I meant on a general level. I'm not talking about pets here.
"All beings tremble before violence. All fear death. All love life." (Buddha)
This quote is on the shirt I'm wearing today!
Dude, I need to get that shirt!
"All beings tremble before violence. All fear death. All love life." (Buddha)
This quote is on the shirt I'm wearing today!
Dude, I need to get that shirt!
Just type in the quote + shirt..and some will come up. I got mine on ebay..so I didn't see any like it, but I'm sure you can find one!
I get kind of tired of these debates which exist entirely in the realm of hypotheticals--"If you HAD to choose between a chimp and a mouse, which would you choose?" and the like. As if we are the main character in Life of Pi and we have to choose between a hyena, a tiger, and an orangutan. Never gonna happen. These types of debates are not useful to everyday situations and distract us the reality of what we can do to prevent the most harm and do the most good, realistically. But, here we go again.....
Hill171 (nice to meet you, by the way....you should introduce yourself!), what type of situation are you talking about where we are hypothetically choosing between a dog and fleas? Do you mean, a flea and a dog are standing in front of me, and I have to press a button to kill one of them? Or do you mean, is it vegan to treat my dog's fleas? Let's ask the specific questions we mean to ask, for clarity's sake.
In regards to the former, if I HAD to simply choose between saving a dog and a flea, arbitrarily (again, never gonna happen..), it would be a toss up. I would feel terrible killing either. Again, I can't wrap my brain around a situation where this would occur.
In regards to the latter, it doesn't make sense to me to have one being suffer at the expense of saving another. That is, it doesn't make sense NOT to treat a dog's fleas and have the dog suffer. And it's too bad there is no humane way to treat fleas, but we just have to do our best to try to keep our dogs from getting fleas and deal with it. To me, it's similar to, say, stepping on bugs when I walk down the sidewalk. I COULD be ultra-vigilant (and I do try to be vigilant), and even never walk outside again, but that would severely cripple me from living my life. So, c'est la vie. I just have to do my best. But you said you were not asking about pets, so I'm not even sure if this is what you were asking.
Again, I'm SO tired of debates that exist entirely in some parallel, hypothetical universe. Such as, "If you were on a desert island, and the only things for you to eat were a cow, a dog, and chicken wings that fell from the sky, which would you pick, and would you still be vegan?" Totally irrelevant to everything we do on a daily basis.
The word "hierarchy" scares me. A hierarchy of animals is at the heart of animal exploitation. We have a cultural hierarchy which arbitrarily places dogs and cats above chickens and cows. The hierarchy is totally contrived and meaningless to me. So, I think we are good at creating these hierarchies, but I don't think they "really" exist. Again, what would such a hierarchy be based on? Similarity to human beings? Useful contribution to the ecosystem? In the second case, bugs would probably be quite close to the top. Again, I'm still kind of confused.
Any time I think one of my posts is pretty good (which I guess they all are ^-^), KMK like blows me out of the water.
http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/aktion/action-smiley-035.gif, KMK
What she said.
Thanks! But AC, I love your quote that you gave about all beings fearing death. So good here! ;)b
created? ??? hierarchy? ??? I respectfully reject the terms that you use and the ideas that inspired them.
And while I'm being devil's advocate >:D (yay! I just wanted to use that emoticon) ... I gotta disagree with Buddha too (sorry B!) ...it's violence not death that animals fear. I've been with (too) many animals when they died and I've never seen any hint of fear. A dog being beaten to death will die afraid, one that dies of illness or old age will just cease to live.
created? ??? hierarchy? ??? I respectfully reject the terms that you use and the ideas that inspired them.
And while I'm being devil's advocate >:D (yay! I just wanted to use that emoticon) ... I gotta disagree with Buddha too (sorry B!) ...it's violence not death that animals fear. I've been with (too) many animals when they died and I've never seen any hint of fear. A dog being beaten to death will die afraid, one that dies of illness or old age will just cease to live.
I am not sure I agree here. Animals don't necessarily know they are going to die when they are about to die of old age, for example. If we could somehow communicate to them that they were about to die, I doubt they would be so peaceful. Like, if I told you that you were about to die without violence--say, by drowning or suffocation--you would be afraid too. But that's all speculation when we are talking about nonhuman animals, really.
Also, why do animals fear violence? They fear violence because violence means harm and possible pain, and pain means that their lives are in danger. There's a reason our bodies work this way. Pain exists as a means to signal to our brains that a threat to life imminent, so get far away from the source of pain!
I am not sure I agree here. Animals don't necessarily know they are going to die when they are about to die of old age, for example. If we could somehow communicate to them that they were about to die, I doubt they would be so peaceful. Like, if I told you that you were about to die without violence--say, by drowning or suffocation--you would be afraid too. But that's all speculation when we are talking about nonhuman animals, really.
Also, why do animals fear violence? They fear violence because violence means harm and possible pain, and pain means that their lives are in danger. There's a reason our bodies work this way. Pain exists as a means to signal to our brains that a threat to life imminent, so get far away from the source of pain!
I'm saying this, too.
Also, savvyidler...your pictures make me feel jealous and warm inside. I so long to have animals around me! Looks blissful.
I agree KMK, animals avoid pain because it hurts. That's the point of pain, it teaches us to avoid harmful things. Why do animals have to know when they're going to die for their reaction to be valid? Is the question really, how would animals react if they saw the world as we do? Speculation is a good word for it.
My closest experiences are with dogs, but I've noticed they don't make the same production about food or sex or body shape that humans do either. Not a lot of reflection or regret but that doesn't mean they live any less or are lower in some (externally imposed) hierarchy.
I'm pretty sure (well, I'm completely sure but it's pure supposition and I don't want to be argumentative) that dogs don't have tomorrows. They are truly Zen.
AC: blissful? hm, it does have its moments. If you're ever in my neighborhood you're welcome to drop by and be engulfed by the pack. They love having company.
The word "hierarchy" scares me. A hierarchy of animals is at the heart of animal exploitation. We have a cultural hierarchy which arbitrarily places dogs and cats above chickens and cows. Again, what would such a hierarchy be based on? Similarity to human beings? Useful contribution to the ecosystem? In the second case, bugs would probably be quite close to the top.
I believe the 'heirarchy' Hill speaks of it the text book definition and formulation. I don't think it can be ignored that we are 'programmed' to believe insects are lower on the totum pole than cows and cows than cats or dogs. I'm not arguing that this is a right or wrong way of thinking. Just stating a point. I studied a great deal of ecology in college and I can definately attest to the ecological model being human on top, insect on bottom. Having that model shoved down your mouth your entire life it's hard to up and change that way of thinking. I would like to say I think of insects and animals alike...but I dont. I do not argue they all have equal ecological meaning, but in the everyday mind they do not. For whatever reason I put all animals on the same plane (including humans), I'm not sure why I think of insects as lower. Food for though I suppose.
Yeah, you're definitely right, pooh bear, that top-down kind of thinking is engrained/programmed into us. I kind of think it's like the way we learn history in this country--from the perspective of the old white guys who wrote our textbooks. This skews our view of which historical events are significant. I don't think the way we perceive the animal kingdom is too different. There are also a ton of other things--the way certain animals are anthropomorphized from the time we are children, the fact that it is easier to identify with mammals like ourselves, and the limits of our own perception of the lives of bugs. I mean, it's not surprising that people think in terms of this hierarchy. But it isn't right either.
And savvy, I definitely hear what you are saying about dogs. Lots of interesting things to think about.
Yeah, you're definitely right, pooh bear, that top-down kind of thinking is engrained/programmed into us. I kind of think it's like the way we learn history in this country--from the perspective of the old white guys who wrote our textbooks. This skews our view of which historical events are significant. I don't think the way we perceive the animal kingdom is too different. There are also a ton of other things--the way certain animals are anthropomorphized from the time we are children, the fact that it is easier to identify with mammals like ourselves, and the limits of our own perception of the lives of bugs. I mean, it's not surprising that people think in terms of this hierarchy. But it isn't right either.
And savvy, I definitely hear what you are saying about dogs. Lots of interesting things to think about.
Well KMK, it's difficult for humans to empathize with other humans much less animals....or insects! Look at all the destruction humans inflict on our own species. It take an incredibly open minded, almost karmic, person to imagine the suffering of animals, insects is a stretch even for an animal rights activists like myself. It is a bizarre dichotomy though, how we are taught of the ecological importance of insects and yet we kill any bug we see in our homes..... How does the saying go "if a butterfly flaps it's wings in Africa, it causes a hurriacane in North America"..... We are all ecologically tied together somehow; Insect, human, cow, cat, pig, dog....we all play an important role.
"anthropomorphized"....KMK i can so tell you are in college or shortly out of college ^-^ I haven't used words like that since I was studious (lol) :o
ps- i'm totally teasing you, hopefully that's okay on the debate board :)
Haha, true that! Good point about the general lack of empathy.
I don't know what you are talking about. Anthropomorphism is SUCH a commonplace word. ;)
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