NVR: Gender Equality (global)
Posted by queen bee on Nov 08, 2007 · Member since May 2007 · 352 posts
Since there have been a few interesting gender discussions here, I thought I'd share these articles:
http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSL0656475220071108?pageNumber=2&sp=true.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/01/fashion/01WORK.html?em&ex=1194670800&en=8807d6128cc02c1b&ei=5070
Gee, we're so...advanced? Sad, imo.
WOW.
Those are both great articles.
I personally know plenty of people who still deny that the gender gap is THIS bad in America--after all, we're the best gawl-durned country in the world! Amurrrica is all about freedom!
Their claims? The Feminist movement was just a thing of the 70's. Women have the right to vote, that means equality. And hey! Not all of us are secretaries, teachers, and stay-at-home housewifes anymore...so this slight improvement means we can stop worrying about fighting for our rights....right?
Too bad it's usually those people who are too lazy/preoccupied with other trivial matters to take time to read articles like these.
Thanks for the article links. I've forwarded them to family and friends in the hopes some will read. It is infuriating how much this still goes on everyday! I used to be the "nice girl" at work, and after getting sh*t on repeatedly, I am now the pissed off, f*ck you all if you don't like it, woman at work. So sad since I'm normally a super nice person and away from work I still am. But at work it's so obvious how unjust and unequal our society's perceptions still are. But the guys don't see it and certainly don't care.
But yeah, it goes on EVERYWHERE in our society, too!!
I agree wiith everything you wrote Carrot Wench! >:( >:(
Well, here we go again.
Edit, because I want to clarify my meaning: I'm half-expecting this thread to turn into a discussion (once again) on why feminism is immoral, or other such nonsense. And, most people recognize that gender equality is still a goal to work towards, and not yet a reality.
Yes, those were great articles. I am currently taking a Women and Work class, so the articles were both enjoyable and beneficial. It certainly is sad that the US ranking for gender equity has fallen, however, it is not surprising. The US strives to be a powerful force in the world. The US is a patriarchal society. Values are placed in consumerism and objectification. In order for those in power (primarily rich, white, males) to stay in power, they must remain in superior/dominate positions. The historical, classical, power dualities are rich over poor, white over nonwhite, male over females. Staying in power has apparently not been too challenging for those at the top. This may be because those in power are also those that make the rules. I believe that the mass population is persuaded to believe stereotypes through visual programming (t.v.'s, propaganda, etc.). For example, a few years ago there was a bill on the ballot in Oregon wanting to include more information on food labels, such as if the product contained GMOs. To combat this bill, companies paid a lot of money advertising that labeling such information would cost a lot of extra money which would in turn be passed onto the consumer through higher prices. The majority of the populating believed this argument (some didn't bother to find out or pay attention to who was paying for the advertisements) and the bill was not passed. The population was persuaded by propaganda.
Fortunately, some progress has been made by the oppressed in the US. There is, however, still a long way to go. It is nice to remain aware of that. Like Ani DiFranco sings, "They give just enough to make us think that we see change".
Well, here we go again.
;D Yeah, things could get interesting.
Wow. I've been on a tyrade about children's toy commercials for the past few weeks. (No little girls in tonka commercials, no little boys in kitchen playset commercials, etc.) I'll add this to the list of things to be p*ssed off about. That's pretty crazy, though!
Oh, the toys... >:(
Okay, let me also clarify by saying I didn't post this to start any shoving matches; I'm inherently interested in gender (in)equality and have found others to be so here, as well. I really am just sharing!
To me, it's important to share these kinds of stories, articles, and studies, particularly because many people either won't or can't access this kind of information. And, the only way to achieve quality results is to remain informed - something I find to be true in all aspects in life. I think it's particularly important to remain aware of gender hypocrisies and double standards so that generational gaps aren't formed; i.e. the feminists of the 70's really are far removed from today's young women, and I don't want to see their fight become historical, with zero furthering. Does that make sense?
Anyway, I agree with all the points made thus far. I look forward to a day when women are paid just as much as men are (my cousin, who is female, has a bachelor's degree in nursing and makes less than her husband working in the exact same field, in the same hospital, with the same amount of experience, with an A.S. degree). I want girls and boys BOTH to play with whatever toys they like, not just those that are marketed towards them via gender stereotypes. I expect to be taken seriously at work when I have on lipstick and when I don't, and I expect my kindness to be accepted as a sign of good ethics, not mushy girliness (and no, I don't think girliness is mushy - just playing on preconceived stereotypes).
So thanks to all who will share the message. I know I won't stop until gender equality is just that.
...
To me, it's important to share these kinds of stories, articles, and studies, particularly because many people either won't or can't access this kind of information. And, the only way to achieve quality results is to remain informed - something I find to be true in all aspects in life. I think it's particularly important to remain aware of gender hypocrisies and double standards so that generational gaps aren't formed; i.e. the feminists of the 70's really are far removed from today's young women, and I don't want to see their fight become historical, with zero furthering. Does that make sense?
...
So thanks to all who will share the message. I know I won't stop until gender equality is just that.
You go girl! :)
I want to say thanks for sharing the articles, they are very interesting. I still don't feel very strongly about the issue though. I suppose it's because I'm just really lucky in that I never had an problems at work. I know for a fact that I get paid decent money for what I do. I feel I am treated equally so it's hard for me to get riled up about.
The rosepetal cottage really p*sses me off. I am a woman engineer and d**n proud of it, graduated with a woman to men ration of 1 to 5. If I ever had a daugher I would not allow her to play with dolls, rosepetal cottage or any garbage like that. It will be math...math...math. The most important subject. I would get my daughter hot wheels, RC planes, and fun things, no garbage "girlly" stuff. I hate "girlly" stuff. Sorry, my own tyrant going there. I always hated girlly stuff when I would get it as a child, I was a bleeding knees tomboy. I had one barbie as a child, it wound up naked and headless in the bottom of the toybox, under all of my hot wheels, toy trucks, and my fun toys. Yes, my favorite show when I was young was Transformers!!! ;D
Just had to edit, something funny I remember, I used my barbie as an obsticle to run my "big foot" truck over.
But really, I am like lasadonii (sp?). I haven't experience much in the way of sexism at work, but I did see a little of it in school. Perhaps once a woman gets her engineering degree they figure that we paid our due, same as men, and deserve the same pay and work as a man. But then again, I don't know what others are getting paid because we are not allowed to discuss that...but I don't think it is different.
I personally think its great that we encourage girls to play with kitchen sets and baby dolls...boys should not play with those things...its better that we give them tools and stuff so they can learn to be real men (IE NOT GAY) ::)
Thanks for the article links. I've forwarded them to family and friends in the hopes some will read. It is infuriating how much this still goes on everyday! I used to be the "nice girl" at work, and after getting sh*t on repeatedly, I am now the pissed off, f*ck you all if you don't like it, woman at work. So sad since I'm normally a super nice person and away from work I still am. But at work it's so obvious how unjust and unequal our society's perceptions still are. But the guys don't see it and certainly don't care.
But yeah, it goes on EVERYWHERE in our society, too!!
I agree wiith everything you wrote Carrot Wench! >:( >:(
FAIR GAME!!!!!!!!!!! (I don't think this at all.......... in case you didn't know but couldn't help being a pill...
I did play with barbies, my little ponies, and she-ra, but I also had a ton of legos. Moslty we played outside riding bikes & running around in the neighborhood & playing jailbreak or building forts in the woods. I think I turned out ok, barbie didn't destroy my self image.
I can't view the rose petal cottage here at work but it sounds like crap, I give you that one!
I guess my opinion on this subject is, yes, women should be treated equally as men, but on the other hand I like feeling like a woman too. I can wear makeup & a skirt to my engineering job and get paid just as much as a man.
"as someone on the Sociologists for Women in Society listserve said, "i know i dream about doing laundry and making muffins for others"." -BP
Funny, I enjoy doing laundry and making muffins for others, but I was always the little kid with the GI joe and he-man (<-- He's hot) and action video games. I guess I got saturated with all that masculine crap so that now I'd rather paint my nails. My sisters and brother were raised in the gender norms, and they turned out quite typical. Hmm, now I'm babbing...
;D That is totally awesome snowqueen!! Are you really not allowed to discuss pay at work? That seems like a problem in itself, because how can individual cases of discrimination be rooted out when employees cannot be compared?
Those ads make me so pissed! :-X Partially at the businesses for making those products but more so at parents and society in general for letting gender roles to persist. I wasnt totally surprised by the article that compared countries, but I was surprised south africa ranked above the US. That was pretty unexpected, and I played a trick on a couple of people mentioning to them gender inequality in south africa and they took to it ;) They seemed pretty surprised that south africa along with 30 other countries (and rising) rank above the US. ::)
Argh ... I just typed out a reply and my browser froze, crashing everything.
The jist of it was this: on paper, at least, women have only had the same rights as men for a relatively short time. So, we're dealing with thousands of years of patriarchal rule. That is not going to be overthrown in 100 years. It will take a lot longer than that.
I think it will happen, but it will happen each individual at a time. With every new generation, the old views will slip away.
I would like to comment on one thing, though. As a woman, I think we should be careful in going in the other direction. I mean, there are women out there who are offended if a man opens the door for them. :o
I grew up in a household that stressed the fact that I can do anything, as long as I work hard for it. My gender never played a part in what I could or could not do. I played with dolls, bears, loved dressing up, loved the color pink. I also had kiddy science sets, read a lot of books, and caught bugs in jars for observation.
I garaduated first in high school, first in undergrad, and first in grad. My degree is in a science field, and the males outnumbered me heavily. Most of my professors were male too. I applied myself (aka, had no life because I studied all the time) and came out on top.
I love tromping through the woods, studying bugs, animals and ecology. I plan on going all the way to the top in my chosen passion.
But, here is the flip side: I love my femminity. I love being a woman. I adore high heels, skirts, and perfume. I chose my partner because he matches me in values and philosophy. But, he also opens doors for me, pulls out my chair, orders for me in restaurants, and is dominant in the ... uh bedroom. ;) He also cooks, cleans, and is my biggest supporter/fan. We make decisions together.
If my kids want to play with the cottage or with dolls ... they will be able to. Same goes for the flip side. They can play with tonka trucks if they want. I will cater to their interests and their individual personality, letting them know they can do anything if they work hard and put their mind to it. Obstacles are challenges, after all.
So, while I'm all for equality, I think this will be achieved individually ... and will take several more generations. I personally think focusing on the individual, and what they can achieve, rather than what gender they are will serve those interests further, i.e. I will tell my son he can do anything he wants not because he is a male, but because he has a mind. I will tell my daughter she can do anything she wants, not because she is a woman and needs to prove herself, but because she has a mind.
I'm pretty much with you, Ecstaticand lots of others on here. As a kid, I had TONS of Barbie dolls and I loved them. I also had He-Man and Matchbox cars. I played with mostly boys as a young kid b/c my mom's friend had sons. I remember one time, crying because my friend Mark's Darth Vader doll (oops. I mean action figure) kidnapped my Barbie while we were playing and wouldn't release her. Ha! :D So, anyway, we apparently played dolls together. But, we also played speedracer on our bikes, football (tackle), and watched Transformers. However, my ultimate dream since I was a little kid was to be a "mommy." Seriously, I've always wanted to be a stay at home mom. I don't feel like I'm setting back the feminist movement in anyway, however. I think that's bullshit.
My dad worked the night shift and my mom worked days. Dad would pick my sister and me up from school and start dinner so it was ready when mom got home (this was so we could eat as a family and he would still have time for a nap before work). I never really knew about "gender roles" until I was older. I do remember a girl in third grade making fun of a boy for choosing a pink crayon for something. I was clueless, so I asked my mom and she explained it. It blew my mind.
As a teenager, I wore make-up, loved fashion and acted pretty "feminine" I guess. Once I got to college, I stopped wearing make up and didn't really care about fashion (still don't), but I don't FEEL any less feminine. I don't know. Maybe if I started wearing make up and high heels I could find myself a husband to be a stay at home mom with. ;)
as someone on the Sociologists for Women in Society listserve said, "i know i dream about doing laundry and making muffins for others".
I guess this person is being funny, but I really do dream of that! Like my dream is to be a homemaker. I guess it is little unusual.
I think you make a good point ecstatic, but its not in our governments place to be spliting kids into gender roles. I would like to see a bigger initiative towards educating teachers not to discriminate between students, especially in grade school. Public education should not be enforcing gender roles! They should be making it as clear as possible to children that boys and girls are the same and should be allowed to partake in all of the same activities without ridicule or inquiry... Sadly right now teachers still split boys and and girls into groups, give them stickers and toys based on sex, ect.
As for businesses catering to gender roles, well they dont have any obligation to the people as public education does... Business can cater to whoever they want... If they wanted to, they could promote their products to certain races, religions, ect... But the reason you dont see them doing that a lot is because the consumers wont stand for it, and hopefully someday we wont stand for gender roles either.
I think you make a good point ecstatic, but its not in our governments place to be spliting kids into gender roles. I would like to see a bigger initiative towards educating teachers not to discriminate between students, especially in grade school. Public education should not be enforcing gender roles! They should be making it as clear as possible to children that boys and girls are the same and should be allowed to partake in all of the same activities without ridicule or inquiry... Sadly right now teachers still split boys and and girls into groups, give them stickers and toys based on sex, ect.
As for businesses catering to gender roles, well they dont have any obligation to the people as public education does... Business can cater to whoever they want... If they wanted to, they could promote their products to certain races, religions, ect... But the reason you dont see them doing that a lot is because the consumers wont stand for it, and hopefully someday we wont stand for gender roles either.
I agree, Wormy!
A child's school environment plays a HUGE role in his or her development. Of course the home/family is a big part, but a child's peers, teachers, and entire educational institution really serve to drive home the social norms.
At that age, we understand school as a place to learn all about ___subject_A____, and learn the proper way(s) to ___behavior_Z____.
....but there are sooo many letters in between. Most people don't even see it--the gender norms are so ingrained into culture (at least partially due to the aforementioned cause) that we don't realize everything ELSE we're teaching our children.
If we're taught these norms from an early age, have them constantly reinforced in the school setting and elsewhere, we end up REALLY confused when it comes to gender-bending, alternative labeling, and the like......and then we end up with people who take that to extremes of intolerance, who simply cannot accept these gender alternatives. I'm pretty sure it's this prevailing attitude that results in gender and sexual-related hate crimes.
This is why the issue is so important. This is why we must take action to ensure a non-oppressed system of gender identity development among children (and adults!). Some people think that issues like this are just pansy-ass, PC attempts to destroy American culture or tradition or whatever (yes, I've heard these arguments), but they fail to see the bigger picture.
However, my ultimate dream since I was a little kid was to be a "mommy." Seriously, I've always wanted to be a stay at home mom. I don't feel like I'm setting back the feminist movement in anyway, however. I think that's bullshit.
I totally understand. I have many friends (by default, as they are the wives of my partner's friends). Most of them are very intelligent women who are stay at home moms. They love it. But, the one thing they always say is that other women in the "corporate" world always look down on them. Comments range from "is that ALL that you do, stay at home?" to "Haven't you heard of the femminist movement?"
I've always thought that to be a step in the wrong direction. Equality for women, as it seems to me, is about going out and doing what you want, what makes you happy. Having the choices and options to be able to do this was the whole essence of the movement (at least, the way I see it). So, choosing to be a lawyer or doctor or teacher is wonderful. But, so is choosing to remain at home. I really dislike how people have gone from thinking women working outside of the home is bad to the opposite end - thinking staying at home is bad.
For the school comments - I do agree that there is a lot of work to be done there. Society does tend to push the gender roles onto kids, everywhere. I was a bit immune as I wasn't allowed to watch TV, and spent my time at school bored out of my mind and reading books during lectures. The first time I heard of "gender roles" was in college, lol. But, I do agree that kids get a lot of pressure to be "male" or "female" ... even though their interests may be opposite to said roles.
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