The rosepetal cottage really p*sses me off.  I am a woman engineer and d**n proud of it, graduated with a woman to men ration of 1 to 5.  If I ever had a daugher I would not allow her to play with dolls, rosepetal cottage or any garbage like that.  It will be math...math...math.  The most important subject.  I would get my daughter hot wheels, RC planes, and fun things, no garbage "girlly" stuff.  I hate "girlly" stuff.  Sorry, my own tyrant going there.  I always hated girlly stuff when I would get it as a child, I was a bleeding knees tomboy.  I had one barbie as a child, it wound up naked and headless in the bottom of the toybox, under all of my hot wheels, toy trucks, and my fun toys.  Yes, my favorite show when I was young was Transformers!!! ;D

Just had to edit, something funny I remember, I used my barbie as an obsticle to run my "big foot" truck over.

I think it's great that you are successful in the engineering career that you chose and would totally encourage skills like math to your daughter, but i also think forbidding her to play with anything girly is just as bad as forcing her to play with anything girly.  Kids like what they like and if she sees other girls & boys playing with and enjoying traditionally "girly" toys, she could see it as a punishment that you don't allow that.  That could lead her to want them even more.  What is wrong with a kitchen set?  Might seem like a traditionally 'girly' toy but i have a friend with 2 sons, her husband is a chef, and the boys love their kitchen set.. but love it even more when their dad cooks with them.  Plus, obviousely from this being a food-based site we all love (in varying degrees) cooking and learning more about food.  Food is universal, not a male or female thing.. the same goes for babies, playing with a baby doll doesn't mean you're going to grow up to want to be a stay at home mom (or gay, if you're a boy).  I personally grew up with a ton of barbies and cabbage patch kids, and i think i got my fill.  I love my friends kids but i don't think i want to have any of my own. 

lauranc - i think that if your dream is being a stay at home mom, that's wonderful.  it's all about living what you choose and doing your best at it.  Whether it be an at home mom or an astronaut, everyone is different and has their own interests.. i think it's just as ignorant for a woman who has chosen a "career-oriented" path to look down on those who have chosen otherwise.  I have some friends that are at home moms and they love it, and i know the kids love it too.  They're only little and cute once and it's gone really fast, plus i think the impact and influence a parent has over a child is WAY stronger than what toy you buy them.  Especially if the parent isn't around to show a balance.

However, my ultimate dream since I was a little kid was to be a "mommy."  Seriously, I've always wanted to be a stay at home mom.  I don't feel like I'm setting back the feminist movement in anyway, however.  I think that's bullshit.

I totally understand. I have many friends (by default, as they are the wives of my partner's friends). Most of them are very intelligent women who are stay at home moms. They love it. But, the one thing they always say is that other women in the "corporate" world always look down on them. Comments range from "is that ALL that you do, stay at home?" to "Haven't you heard of the femminist movement?"

I've always thought that to be a step in the wrong direction. Equality for women, as it seems to me, is about going out and doing what you want, what makes you happy. Having the choices and options to be able to do this was the whole essence of the movement (at least, the way I see it). So, choosing to be a lawyer or doctor or teacher is wonderful. But, so is choosing to remain at home. I really dislike how people have gone from thinking women working outside of the home is bad to the opposite end - thinking staying at home is bad.

For the school comments - I do agree that there is a lot of work to be done there. Society does tend to push the gender roles onto kids, everywhere. I was a bit immune as I wasn't allowed to watch TV, and spent my time at school bored out of my mind and reading books during lectures. The first time I heard of "gender roles" was in college, lol. But, I do agree that kids get a lot of pressure to be "male" or "female" ... even though their interests may be opposite to said roles.

Exactly.  I agree with everything you've said here.  I am currently a teacher.  I KNOW I can do it.  I LOVE doing it, but when I have children, I want to stay at home.  I really appreciated having my mom at home when I was a child (she went to work part time when I was in like 4th grade or something), and I want to do that for my children. 

However, my ultimate dream since I was a little kid was to be a "mommy."  Seriously, I've always wanted to be a stay at home mom.  I don't feel like I'm setting back the feminist movement in anyway, however.  I think that's bullshit.

I totally understand. I have many friends (by default, as they are the wives of my partner's friends). Most of them are very intelligent women who are stay at home moms. They love it. But, the one thing they always say is that other women in the "corporate" world always look down on them. Comments range from "is that ALL that you do, stay at home?" to "Haven't you heard of the femminist movement?"

I've always thought that to be a step in the wrong direction. Equality for women, as it seems to me, is about going out and doing what you want, what makes you happy. Having the choices and options to be able to do this was the whole essence of the movement (at least, the way I see it). So, choosing to be a lawyer or doctor or teacher is wonderful. But, so is choosing to remain at home. I really dislike how people have gone from thinking women working outside of the home is bad to the opposite end - thinking staying at home is bad.

I'm all for SAHMs, if it's what they want to do.  But since we're talking about gender roles and gender equality... Isn't it even less acceptable for a man to choose to be a stay at home dad?  I just wonder where the equality is in that. 

It's TOTALLY unacceptable for a dad to stay at home...in a lot of people's eyes.  I however, have a hard time respecting people who think that way.  Like I said, I want to be a stay at home mom, but if my husband wants to stay home, I would totally be willing to work (or at least work something out so maybe each of us does our "time" in the workforce while the other stays home).  I really think of being able to stay home with your kids as a privilege (if that's what you want to do, of course...nothing wrong with working moms!).

I agree that equality should be about a woman choosing her path. I think the problem with staying at home was not that the woman was staying at home, but the value that society (men) had placed on her staying at home. The woman's job as a homemaker was undervalued. Being a homemaker is hard work. I also think that if someone wants to stay at home with their children, she or he should be able to. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people that cannot afford to stay home. :'( There are women in other countries that are having to migrate to richer countries and leave their children with a relative in order to provide for them. It is all very sad.
I hope for a day in which all women's work, inside or outside, the home can be valued by society.

Oh yeah, as for girls, Barbie's, and the color pink...... I personally have never been a pink person, but my daughter loves pink. She also loves lizards, snakes, grasshoppers, crickets, salamanders, spiders, bees, and any other animal she can get her hands on and kiss. Yes - she has kissed both a snake and a salamander. She also used to walk around with ladybugs in her mouth! She did not eat them, she would just carry them around for awhile.

As the child of a stay-at-home mom, I've got to say that even though I would encourage someone to do it if that's what she thinks is best for her and her family, you've got to be VERY conscious of how your situation is being perceived by your children. As a kid in school, I was first surprised and then embarassed to find out that other kid's moms had jobs, as I had assumed that all parents were like my own. My parents also fit the stereotypical aggressive-father/passive-mother gender roles, and I really think this has caused me problems with trying to assert my own needs in a relationship (actually, I think it ruined me in my last relationship, but I don't want to misplace blame). When I've talked about it with my mom, she was completely surprised because she never thought of herself as being in a sexist relationship, yet my sister has told her the same thing.  :(

That's really interesting. Was your mom surprised that she was in a "sexist" relationship because that's only what it looked like on the outside or what it looked like to her children? But, in reality, it wasn't really that way between them?

For instance, if someone saw my partner and I out, or even if they went out with us, they would assume he's a dominant male and I'm the submissive woman. In fact, we're completely equal and make all the decisions together. I just happen to enjoy things like him opening my doors, ordering for me, even picking out clothes. He's a designer and his taste is WAY better than mine. Plus, that kind of stuff (shopping, restaurants, etc.) bores me. Also, I never carry my wallet as I hate purses so he always does the paying (it's from our joint account), and driving. So, from the outside, we look totally "traditional" and he probably comes out looking domineering. When, in fact, as I said, we've never made a single decision without discussing it and mutually agreeing on it. Plus, I'm also bored by cooking and cleaning so he does it all, lol.

Conversely, I know there are some couples out there who choose, consciously, a relationship where the man is the head of the family. Mainly these are Christians (NOT saying these are all Christians, obviously) who do the husband follows god, wife follows husband bit in the marriage. I know this is called something, but I forgot the name for it. And I know there are people "in the lifestyle" BDSM who choose, consciously, traditional gender roles ... or reverse them, as the case may be. Then there is the "taken in hand" movement.

Obviously, this might not be the situation with your parents ... but your point sparked these thoughts in my mind. Is it still "sexist" if we choose, consciously, such relationships or such roles? Then, how do we make close friends or family understand that choosing such "roles" consciously is different than doing it, unconsciously or by default?

I know I've gotten the incredulous "you let him order for you comments" from women. Your post sparked my next thought - I don't want my daughter to think this is the role she needs to play in relationships, simply because this is what I prefer.

Is this what you were thinking of?

Yikes.

Wow. I didn't know that existed for Christians. I was thinking more of the "vanilla" version where the wife simply obeys her husband, without punishments. They base it on the Bible, and mainly just do a lot of prayer to help them serve their husbands best.

This reminds me of this: http://www.takeninhand.com/

Of course, whenever I think of "spanking" ... I think "ooh, kinky fun." So, my associations are probably all wrong for this kind of stuff. It's hard for me to imagine that any adult, in a relationship, actually enjoys being spanked by another adult for "misbehaving." It seems a bit over the top. Unless, of course, we're talking of said kinky fun. ;)

But, it seems like the Christian website is not about the kinky fun part, lol.

I've always wondered whether most of these people choose these roles consciously or just, by default, because they don't know there is another choice. It makes a difference, for me, whether it's a conscious choice ... or one they make because they think this is how it "should" or "must" be.

Mainly these are Christians (NOT saying these are all Christians, obviously) who do the husband follows god, wife follows husband bit in the marriage. I know this is called something, but I forgot the name for it.

Is this what you were thinking of?

Yikes.

Are you f**king kidding me?!

I knew the U.S still had a long way to go, but it is still mind-boggling.  Growing up; I was a twin.  My sister was way more "girlie" than I was.  I hated pink but still played with barbies!  My parents pretty much let us kids do whatever we wanted in order to find out who we were as individuals.  I was pretty lucky.  But that doesn't mean I haven't suffered since entering the workforce.  I have a very strong personality.  I will tell you if something is wrong and how to fix it and I will also take charge of situations.  Because of this, I am known as a b*tch.  Just because I don't sugar coat things and make sure I don't hurt your feelings when I correct you?!?  I find men have more of a problem with this than other women.

On a side note:  I am in the military in a very male dominated field.  I am a machinery technician.  Men always think that I can't do my job.  I do have to work twice as hard as all of them to get half the respect.  The only think I can say for a fact is that my pay is on a standardized scale and we are all paid the same, regardless of gender.

SERIOUSLEY!?!?  PEOPLE SHOULD BE f**k**g SHOT!!!!

Yeah, that was pretty much my reaction.  And I'm not really a violent person.

Well, just for the record, these types of articles are always misleading in their titles.

It's not really rape. It's consensual non-consent.

I mean, it's the norm in a BDSM or whatever other title there is for such lifestyles to enjoy such play. There is always a safe word involved, and it's always honored. Now, that word is NOT "stop" or "don't" because those words are used for realism or to enhance the experience. The word is usually unrelated to sex like "red" or "orange" etc.

As I said, I have a completely different approach to this because I am most definitely NOT vanilla when it comes to sex (sorry if that is too much information, lol). So, I see these types of articles within their actual context: a consensual and mutually agreed upon relationship. Obviously, outside of this context, it is a heinous crime and so wrong beyond words.

Actually, within BDSM, to distinguish from rape (as in, someone violating the rights of another without consent) they call it "ravishment." Which is ALL about mutual consent, mutual like, and safety.

Personally, I do not think such play should be called "rape" as 1. it's misleading, and 2. is a bit sick/twisted considering rape has nothing to do with consent.

This is true. But, I was thinking of those people who are conscious of the gender roles, of their environment, of history, etc., and simply choose that which is right for them, what makes them happy. If we're conscious about it, and do what is best for us (as opposed to what society thinks is right) ... then, I think, we have determined where we come from, why we choose what we do, etc.

I grew up in a household with two working parents, and their "gender roles" were definitely not traditional, lol. I work as well, as does my partner ... but, as I mentioned, my relationship has elements in it that are "traditioinal." Except it has them in there for different reasons than "society says this is how it is." They're there because it suits us and makes us happy.

This is true. But, I was thinking of those people who are conscious of the gender roles, of their environment, of history, etc., and simply choose that which is right for them, what makes them happy. If we're conscious about it, and do what is best for us (as opposed to what society thinks is right) ... then, I think, we have determined where we come from, why we choose what we do, etc.

I agree, Ecstatic. I still don't think you can eliminate learned gender roles from WHY this is right for me or WHY am I happy, but that's probably looking into it further than anyone wants to, anyway.

And about that article, they should have included the mutual enjoyment of a woman forcing sex on a man!  ;D