Obama and Lipstick
Posted by pooh bear on Sep 09, 2008 · Member since Jun 2008 · 671 posts
I'm sorry you guys, I know a lot of your are Obama supporters, but this pompous comment is certainly not winning my vote!
Obama: "You can put lipstick on a pig," he said to an outbreak of laughter, shouts and raucous applause from his audience, clearly drawing a connection to Palin's joke even if it's not what Obama meant. "It's still a pig. You can wrap an old fish in a piece of paper called change. It's still going to stink after eight years."
As a women and a veg*n I take great offense to this. Nice Obama, offend women and the veg*n community all with the same breath >:(. Here is a link to the entire article:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080910/ap_on_el_pr/obama_lipstick
Comments anyone?
I only have a "feeling" for that, but you raised some concerns of mine. Thanks for explaining it more concretely for me. I think both stimulus packages that Bush has done has been incredibly stupid. I didn't get a check the first time, but I did the second time. I cashed it and applied it toward Cat's vet bill. I'm not sure how that did anything at all for the economy.
What does build-up of inventory mean?
You've gotta vote, pooh! You live in a swing state, right! VOTE!
This comment is ALL I'VE HEARD on the news today. Fucking unbelievable. Seriously. I cannot believe the Republican party has the nads to escalate this and accuse Obama of being sexist. It makes me furious. It is so clear that Obama was not calling her a pig.
Seriously, are we in fucking kindergarten? "Miss, he called me a pig!" My 7th graders are more mature than this.
I agree with many of you in that the issues are totally mis-prioritized. Or de-prioritized, rather. This election deserves a kick in the balls.
Really though, if the concern is issues involving women, as this comment suggests, there is no choice but Obama. McCain wants to deny women birth control, and then deny them access to the information required to make healthy decisions, then deny them the ability and resources to deal with the consequences of that ignorance. And Palin is worse--she's anti-choice under all circumstances, including rape. She also supported women having to pay for rape kits to collect forensic evidence after an assault (these cost hundreds of dollars). Can it get more misogynistic? And we're here quibbling about a figure of speech? I'm sorry, I'm enraged by that. >:(
This is OUT OF CONTROL.
Just had to add to McCain's hypocrisy...
He said the same exact phrase three times during his campaign. Watch him say it...
Just had to add to McCain's hypocrisy...
He said the same exact phrase three times during his campaign. Watch him say it...
:-D
Just had to add to McCain's hypocrisy...
He said the same exact phrase three times during his campaign. Watch him say it...
:-D
;D
Also, with regards to animal rights, McCain/Palin couldn't be less veg*n friendly. Funds for aerial wolf hunting, anyone?
I think Palin calling him Sambo is more offensive than anything he's said so far.
Indeed. As a whole, we've come to an understanding that racism and racial slurs are unacceptable.
We have yet to reach that level in regards to speciesism, unfortunately. Though AC is moving us forward by reminding us when our language and metaphors are NOT VEGAN. ;)b
So like I said, can't really expect him to not use an animal metaphor. Practically everyone does.
Kucinich, on the other hand, would know better. But this is true for most things. ;)
Well, just my opinion. I didn't much like Obama before the lipstick comments so that was just icying on the cake. That being said, I don't necessarly like McCain either so.... sadly I just may not vote.
...vote for nader ;-)
If Obama and his Senate colleagues care so much about a "Green Economy" why haven't they passed green energy tax cuts that makes green companies nearly tax exempt?
Passing such measures would be meaningless, as Bush would veto them. Even if the House and Senate agreed on this, they would not be close to being able to override a veto. Majority does not rule in our democracy. If a Democratic House and Democratic Senate had a Democratic President to work with, no problem needing 2/3 to override a veto. Good chance the Green Naderites will again play the role of SPOILER and give us McCain in the White House. This will guarantee that there will be no significant Green or Alternative Energy laws passed. GOP = GRAND OIL PARTY.
There are 44 cosponsors of S.2821 and half are republicans. Simple math says that a veto could be overridden with relative ease. Nobody has the desire to actually address environmental issues. They look good on paper, but when it comes time to implement them everyone looks at each other to see who moves first.
Neither Obama or McCain is a cosponsor of the legislation....
You really seem to hate the Green party, Mr. C. ;D
About the environment: They can pass anything they want, they don't fund regulatory agencies with enough staff to do anything significant about it. If they passed it they'd look good and their corporate cronies still have nothing to worry about.
KMK, how about "I have other tofu to fry"? As in General Tao's...mmmm...
I've never had General Tao's. :'(
You really seem to hate the Green party, Mr. C. ;D
About the environment: They can pass anything they want, they don't fund regulatory agencies with enough staff to do anything significant about it. If they passed it they'd look good and their corporate cronies still have nothing to worry about.
HH -
Definitely don't hate the Green Party ??? Just trying to stimulate a little debate. ::)
I have voted in Democratic primaries, Republican primaries, have voted for Democrats and Republicans in general elections, (have even voted for JOHN MCCAIN :o have great admiration for the man ***, as I do for Ralph Nader and Obama). I have voted for two different third party candidates for president. :o ( don't tell angeln syrup!) So in reality, I am an INDEPENDENT, VERY INDEPENDENT. On some issues I am very CONSERVATIVE, on some issues I am very LIBERAL. Am proud to live in a country which gives us freedom of speech and the ability to "debate politics" on the internet. I definitely believe that THE TWO PARTY SYSTEM IS BROKEN. McCain and Obama assure us they will change things - we shall see.
*** fta: BUT have no respect or admiration for the campaign McCain is running in 2008 - can you say "low road"
Mr.C is old - so old he saw the BEATLES live in concert (that is old 8)). I remember the "Arab Oil Embargo" in 1973. Speed limit was reduced to 55 nationwide to conserve gas, there was some rationing in that you could only get gas on certain days of the week, depending on if your license plate ended in an odd or even number. In many places, it was impossible to buy gas on Sundays. Since then we've had periods where Republicans controlled the House, Senate and White House; periods when the Democrats controlled all three. YET REGARDLESS OF THE PARTY CALLING THE SHOTS, NEITHER DID ANYTHING ABOUT ENERGY INDEPENDENCE OR CONSERVATION. 35 years later, we are paying the price, letting OPEC control our fate. Where was the leadership? Again, if John Kennedy could get us to the moon in less than 10 years, why couldn't Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush I, Clinton, and "W" set a 10 year mission to energy independence? Where was the leadership?
Totally agree with you on not funding the agencies which are supposed to protect us. Look what happened with the tomato, then jalapeno recall fiasco. Same with toys from China, lead, lead, lead. This dangerous, hazardous stuff should not be getting into the country in the 1st place. Once it is distributed and there is a problem, is it asking too much for our government to promptly identify (correctly) the vegetable which is killing people and to identify the source? Should this take months?
Totally agree with you on not funding the agencies which are supposed to protect us. Look what happened with the tomato, then jalapeno recall fiasco. Same with toys from China, lead, lead, lead. This dangerous, hazardous stuff should not be getting into the country in the 1st place. Once it is distributed and there is a problem, is it asking too much for our government to promptly identify (correctly) the vegetable which is killing people and to identify the source? Should this take months?
I don't think it is the people in government that do a bad job (necessarily). Like, with tomatoes, the staff people are probably doing a good job, but the administrators feel pressure to come up with something, so they prematurely say it's a tomato and then are reluctant to change the story. Same thing with Southwest plane maintenance. The staff persons knew there was a problem, but the administrators covered it up.
I think we'd get further with China if they weren't holding our purse strings. DC isn't going to go hard on the country they're borrowing loads of money from. They're going to posture a little bit for the camera, assure the Chinese government behind the scenes, and do nothing substantial about the issue.
Getting back on the subject of "the lipstick comment" for a bit....
I'd just like to preface this next statement with my acknowledgment and support of others' opinions...I support your right to vote for whichever candidate you think is best, and I can't tell you how to think...I'd only urge everyone to carefully examine WHY they feel the way they do, and to make sure your claims for/against a candidate is based on FACTS. (ie, "John Kerry looks like Frankenstein, so he's SO not getting my vote" will not get my support or understanding.)
That said,
I hope that those who are offended by Sen. Obama's use of a common phrase (also used by McCain in the past) will think about it in the right context. Also, realize that the media's sensationalizing of such events really might influence how you feel about it.....My guess is that 9 out of 10 (at least) offended listeners wouldn't have considered it sexist OR viewed it as an insult toward Ms. Palin IF it hadn't been painted that way by the media.
...You can watch a YouTube clip of Palin making her "bulldogs vs. hockey moms => lipstick" statement, which cuts immediately to Obama's use of the "lipstick on a pig" phrase, and you'll connect the two, and likely wouldn't have before...then cut to some commentator's drivel about "what it MEANS!" and it doesn't take much convincing.
It's all about context.
The "lipstick on a pig" analogy might be considered sexist if you've never heard it before.....or if you consider the connection between lipstick and act of "dressing up an ugly situation" as being directly connected to stereotypes of women and/or degradation of femininity, etc....BUT you'd be taking it out of context in these cases.
The phrase IMPLIES that an bad situation is still bad even if you sugar coat it/give it a false, "pretty" exterior.
Sen. Obama USED the phrase to compare the pig with McCain's policies/potential presidency, and the lipstick with McCain's nice-sounding promise for change.
In this case, interpreting this any other way is considered a FALLACY OF EQUIVOCATION.
please, please, please realize that other, more unsavory interpretations of this stem from sensationalized bullshit, or at the very least, a use of completely invalid premises.
...if you've read all this, thank you...I'm long-winded tonight.
Thank you for explaining that so eloquently, CW! I agree with you 100%.
And I learned a new logic term. Fallacy of equivocation. ;)b
Getting back on the subject of "the lipstick comment" for a bit....
http://wire.factcheck.org/2008/09/10/pigs-and-pit-bulls/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U32G5_bqFvA NEW MCCAIN AD ON THE TOPIC
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"it goes on to imply that Obama made a personal dig at Palin, calling her a “pig,” and that commentators decried his sexism for derailing the campaign. This is bunk." ...
“putting lipstick on a pig” is a hoary old expression of the same caliber as “building a better mousetrap” or “letting the cat out of the bag.” We did a quick Nexis search on uses of the expression before Tuesday, and found 2,290 instances dating back to 1985 (which is as far back as most Nexis news goes). Its meaning is precisely what Obama was talking about in his speech: calling the same thing something different."
"And “Katie Couric on this election”? Well, it depends on what your definition of “this” is. Couric was referring to the Hillary Clinton campaign, long before Palin was tapped for v.p. Hey, remember when McCain called Clinton’s health plan “lipstick on a pig”?"
UPDATED: Sat. September 13
Heard a "commentary" by Bill O'Reilly while in the car today addressing the "pig with lipstick" issue. EVEN O'Reilly says Obama was not calling Palin a pig and further said that if McCain keeps running ads suggesting otherwise, there will be a backlash against McCain. :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
hehe, thank you, Shane-the-Philosophy/logic-nerd boyfriend.
so now I've been trying to come up with my own simplified arguments to illustrate the pattern. I'm not good at this, and I haven't run them by Mr. Logic Expert, but so far:
Obama referenced lipstick.
Lipstick is typically worn by women.
Therefore, Obama referenced women.
....."lipstick" being the multiple-meaning term, which is assigned a meaning that was not intended. yeah?
or
Obama referenced lipstick.
Lipstick is part of Palin's speech.
Therefore, Obama referenced Palin's speech.
...to connect Obama's reference directly to Palin, a third premise would probably need to be introduced, which (I think) shows how that connection is stretchin' it. still, "lipstick" is being used in different ways in each premise.
(I've had a long day, and that tends to get me rambling...I'm just glad that you see this as "eloquent" instead of rambling, heh.)
This has been brought up before, but I'm going to mention it again. Do we really want McCain and Palin to overturn Roe vs. Wade? PLEASE KEEP THAT IN MIND. (If I could vote in this election I would, but Canada's got its own politics to argue about right now... But I do know that what happens south of me will have an incredible impact on my life and country.)
Sidenote 1: Palin referenced pit bulls, not bulldogs.
Sidenote 2: I'm trying to wrap my head around this stimulus package. Sorry if I'm being block-headed, but I don't really get it. What does it mean and what are the problems with it?
This reaction is exactly the type of reaction that the Repubicans were hoping for (thanks to the media!) I hope you have read all of the response to this so you can see that it is possible that you were duped in to believing what Obama said was a direct slam at Palin....personally, I think its a stretch, and that he was just using the old phrase, possibly in reference to the way McCain himself used it earlier in his campaign.
Everyone did a great job explaining this...nice work VWers!
PS read the post about what Eve Ensler has to say about Palin if you are concerned about AR
I'm sorry you guys, I know a lot of your are Obama supporters, but this pompous comment is certainly not winning my vote!
Obama: "You can put lipstick on a pig," he said to an outbreak of laughter, shouts and raucous applause from his audience, clearly drawing a connection to Palin's joke even if it's not what Obama meant. "It's still a pig. You can wrap an old fish in a piece of paper called change. It's still going to stink after eight years."
As a women and a veg*n I take great offense to this. Nice Obama, offend women and the veg*n community all with the same breath >:(. Here is a link to the entire article:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080910/ap_on_el_pr/obama_lipstick
Comments anyone?
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