Pro-choice and veg*n?
Hello VegWeb, it's been a while. I was reminded to log in the other day when I got into a debate with a friend about abortion. She challenged that as a veg*n I should also be pro-life by default, which led me into a pretty interesting examination of why I agree with these two philosophies.
I personally maintain that legalising abortion allows women to make important decisions regarding their bodies and futures, and brings the numbers of those seeking dangerous backstreet abortions down. In those countries which legalise abortion, such as my native England, I consider it a right of women in need, although never a method of birth control. Legal limits for abortion exist for a reason; if it isn't a viable foetus, I don't consider it murder.
As a veg*n, I neither support nor participate in the slaughter or torture of animals because I believe that compassion and right should not be extended only to those who have the ability to ask for them. I couldn't kill an animal (except in absolute, last-chance-to-survive emergency), and if I eat meat that's being done on my behalf.
Looking at the reasoning behind my support for legal abortion and veg*nism, I don't feel hypocritical for my decisions.
What about you, dear VegWebbers? Are you inherently conflicted? Which way does your allegiance lie on this tricky moral question?
Oops! KMK, Thanks for clarifying! I guess I should have been more clear, though. I even have a grandchild on the way, is abortion for me, no, unless I was victimized. I am lucky to have a safe, warm and and happy home, very lucky, albeit somewhat crazy at times!
http://leelah.tripod.com/
These children and many, many, MANY more like them, never had a chance. Should they have been aborted? Not for me to say! I am just saying that I wish these children were born into warm, safe homes. I wish I could have helped them. Some of them were tortured from the moment they arrived. I don't know. This debate will never be solved. I do not think anyone who is pro-life should change their mind, but I won't either.
The way to reduce the number of abortions is to reduce the demand, not the supply. So let's educate young people about birth control, make birth control accessible regardless of socioeconomic status, subsidize child care and scholarships for pregnant women and poor parents going to school to try to pull their families out of poverty...
No one likes abortion; we are in agreement there. The issue people are usually arguing is whether it should be legal or not.... and the bottom line is that legally forced breeding will not end well, for anyone, period.
Actually, I agree.
Let me clarify, I don't think abortion should be illegal, but I don't think people should get it either. I don't think it should be government subsidized. TX has a good system that I thought was great. To get an abortion you had to sit down for one hour with a counselor to talk about it. After that you could get the abortion, BUT, I would add on that you would have to wait 24 hours AFTER the counseling session to get the abortion. I just think women forget that this is a baby, not a useless piece of flesh.
Who am I to decide (or any woman) that this little person should never live, should never see the light of day? I just see it as murder, I am sorry, but that is how I see it.
But everymonth when I have my period I cry, because I see it as a tiny person that just died. A tiny baby that I missed out on, that I will never be able to hold in my arms, never show how wonderful life is, that little person will never get the chance to live. Would that have been a boy or girl, what whould he/she of been like. Would he/she have looked like me? Would he/she have had problems with colic? I am crazy I know, but it is how I think.
As far as it not being part of the mother, it isn't. You can see a fetus as more of a parasite if you will, it attaches on to the uterine wall and takes nutrients and oxygen from the mothers blood, nothing else, it grows it's own blood and organs and stuff, if this wasn't the case then the mother's blood would see it as an infection and attack it and kill it. The only thing babies get from their mom's is half of their DNA and nutrients and oxygen, it growns its own of everything. Even the placenta is part of the baby, not the mother. The placenta has blood vessels that are comb shaped and dig into the uterous and that is how it gets the nutrients it needs to grow and develop.
When I was pregnant I became obsessed with how fetusus develop. I was shocked to find out that the DNA of the placenta is the babies, not the mothers, but it makes sense.
Also the way I see it, unless there is something wrong with the fetus, like it has no legs, or it has down's syndrome, it should be given the right to live no matter what. If the mother is incapable of supporting it for whatever reason, then put the baby up for adoption. There are so many wonderful people out there who desperately want a baby and are willing to adopt.
So you've changed your mind?
I have pretty much made my decision, I am going to get an abortion. They can do it with pills as long as the pregnancy is less than 8 weeks. I don't feel right keepinig and trying to raise a baby when I have a full blown career, no father for the baby, and not enough money to be able to support it. It is not even considered a fetus yet I read on one website. But I am taking my time.
The way to reduce the number of abortions is to reduce the demand, not the supply. So let's educate young people about birth control, make birth control accessible regardless of socioeconomic status, subsidize child care and scholarships for pregnant women and poor parents going to school to try to pull their families out of poverty...
No one likes abortion; we are in agreement there. The issue people are usually arguing is whether it should be legal or not.... and the bottom line is that legally forced breeding will not end well, for anyone, period.
Actually, I agree.
Let me clarify, I don't think abortion should be illegal, but I don't think people should get it either. I don't think it should be government subsidized. TX has a good system that I thought was great. To get an abortion you had to sit down for one hour with a counselor to talk about it. After that you could get the abortion, BUT, I would add on that you would have to wait 24 hours AFTER the counseling session to get the abortion. I just think women forget that this is a baby, not a useless piece of flesh.
Actually, you don't seem to agree. LDG stated that birth control should be made accessible regardless of socioeconomic status: you're arguing that every woman should be responsible for paying for her own abortion. Sometimes birth control fails, and that is also where your logic fails. There are women on low incomes who desperately need not to have more medical bills and an extra mouth to feed.
I made this point earlier in the thread, but I really abhor this idea that women seeking abortions are just looking to chuck away a minor inconvenience. It's callous as hell to suggest that women don't agonise over the decision and as you have been there I would have thought that you would understand the struggle which comes with making a decision one way or another.
At this point I am thinking that is borderline worrying behaviour.
An unfertilized egg is not a baby, SQ.
Do you cry every time a man somewhere shoots his wad?
This thread is just waiting for this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0kJHQpvgB8
I was gonna stay out, but I can't. As far as making women think about it. Don't you think they do? It's not like they drive by the doctors office and spontaneously decide to get an abortion, like a BK Veggie or something. Every woman I know who's had one thinks about it long and hard before and after. Most women feel guilty no matter what they choose, because if they keep it they feel they maybe aren't as well equipped as they should be, and if they get rid of it, they feel like a horrible person. One doesn't go into it lightly. Being made to feel guilty by someone you don't even know, when you're already upset probably isn't really helping anyone. P.S. it's a total myth that some women use abortion as birth control. It's too expensive and traumatizing.
ETA- kmk, NICE
I was gonna stay out, but I can't. As far as making women think about it. Don't you think they do? It's not like they drive by the doctors office and spontaneously decide to get an abortion, like a BK Veggie or something. Every woman I know who's had one thinks about it long and hard before and after. Most women feel guilty no matter what they choose, because if they keep it they feel they maybe aren't as well equipped as they should be, and if they get rid of it, they feel like a horrible person. One doesn't go into it lightly. Being made to feel guilty by someone you don't even know, when you're already upset probably isn't really helping anyone. P.S. it's a total myth that some women use abortion as birth control. It's too expensive and traumatizing.
ETA- kmk, NICE
Plus, these "counselors" are hardly neutral parties. It might only be a slight exaggeration to say they are often hired right out of pro-life picket lines. In general, I think it might be a good idea for a woman who is going through an emotionally tough time to talk to someone. But not someone who thinks abortion is not a viable option (eta, under no circumstances should a woman have to talk to someone before getting an abortion if they don't want to).
Abortion should be safe, legal (without stipulations), and rare. How do you make it rare? Educate people (including teenagers, hell, preteens - before they are thinking about sex) about birth control methods and make it easily available to anyone who wants it. Yes I am a mother. Pregnancy, childbirth, and raising children are very difficult undertakings. No one who doesn't want to go through it should be forced to. That's all I'm going to say about the topic of abortion.
KMK, when I read SQ's post, I thought the exact same thing and was going to post that video, but saw you beat me to it.
OK... I've been reading this thread for quite some time and have remained silent because most of what I think was already being said. I find posts that just agree with another poster annoying at best.
I am pro-choice. I believe birth control should be FREE to all women. I think it would stop a lot of abortions as a 'last result' form of prevention. If the new health care plan by the administration being put forth does not cover abortions then it SHOULD cover birth control pills. Everyone's situation is different and I would never assume to tell another woman what to do. Also, I find that men in general... (Tweety, you have been very respectful in expressing your opinions) should have NO bearing on the discussion/decision because you do not carry the burden.
Also, I have an intolerance to latex and thus used the pill since... well, forever. If I had become pregnant prior to now, I would have aborted (no hesitation). If I were to get pregnant now (being that DH and I do nothing other than pull out) I would keep the fetus.
But it IS just that, a fetus. I view it as a parasite sucking nutrients off of the mother. At how many weeks is a fetus considered viable?? A fetus could NOT survive without the host motherr's body before a certain time.
Yup, agreed 100% with lauren. Especially about the free birth control.
Yup, agreed 100% with lauren.
Annoying, at best.
;)
What? Is this Patrick logged into Allison's account?
I find posts that just agree with another poster annoying at best.
Yup, agreed 100% with lauren.
I just found it amusing!
Anyway, I like agreeing with other people, and such..because it's like talking in real life!
Jeez! Sorrrrrry! You all are mean.
Hahaha! You girls are hilarious. You know what kinds of posts I was referring to.... especially since this topic is a sensitive one. Someone might feel 'ganged up' on if everyone just chimed in and agreed without adding anything else substantial.
Jeez! Sorrrrrry! You all are mean.
I agree. We are ALL mean. ;)
Hahaha! You girls are hilarious. You know what kinds of posts I was referring to.... especially since this topic is a sensitive one. Someone might feel 'ganged up' on if everyone just chimed in and agreed without adding anything else substantial.
Jeez! Sorrrrrry! You all are mean.
I agree. We are ALL mean. ;)
I agree.
Also the way I see it, unless there is something wrong with the fetus, like it has no legs, or it has down's syndrome, it should be given the right to live no matter what.
...so babies with downs' syndrome are less deserving of life???
Also the way I see it, unless there is something wrong with the fetus, like it has no legs, or it has down's syndrome, it should be given the right to live no matter what.
...so babies with downs' syndrome are less deserving of life???
Just to be clear, it was SQ who said that, not livingdeadgirl.
Personally I find that sentiment absolutely hideous.
Also the way I see it, unless there is something wrong with the fetus, like it has no legs, or it has down's syndrome, it should be given the right to live no matter what.
...so babies with downs' syndrome are less deserving of life???
Just to be clear, it was SQ who said that, not livingdeadgirl.
Personally I find that sentiment absolutely hideous.
thanks for the point of clarification kmk...yeah, and for my 2cents, honestly, i consider myself to be fortunate that i haven't had to make that decision, and i really do not understand why such a sharp dichotomy...well more like a double standard...exists within society:
when a loved one has to be on life support and is reduced to a vegetable state, it is common to 'pull the plug'...but when a woman decides to make a decision for her own body, its murder...
pro choice doesn't always mean the woman will choose abortion. i'm here because my mother made the choice to have me. abortion was an option, but she chose not to go that route. i'm a vegan because i want to make the best possible effort not to support the suffering of animals. i'm pro-choice because i don't think it's anyone's decision but hers whether or not a woman will have a baby. i don't think my support of one cancels out the other. government control of what women can and can't do with their bodies is, in my opinion, one of the largest reminders that sexism is still alive and kicking. yes, there are women who abuse abortion and use it as a very unhealthy form of birth control. but decisions for all women should not be based on the actions of some irresponsible women.
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