To my homosexual friends:
Posted by Allychristine on Nov 05, 2009 · Member since Dec 2007 · 15438 posts
1. Does it bother/annoy/etc. you when people use the term "gay" to mean "stupid"? It's always bothered me, since the very first time I heard it used!
2. Does it bother/annoy/etc. you when people use what they think to be gay voices and mannerisms..in a joking manner? I've noticed a lot of my co workers (straight males and females) do this. I'm just like... ???
To further complicate the issue, sometimes the insult depends on where it's coming from. Like a lot of African Americans who use the N-word in private (or not) amongst themselves, I have no problem when my friends straight or gay say things like fag or "that's so gay", "girlfriend" but when a group of str8 kids such as the ones int he Wanda Sykes vid says it, then it's insulting.
That's probably wrong and not p.c. but that's me.
I think people are overly pc
If you use pejorative terms and someone is bothered by that, it's not that the person is "overly pc," it's that you offended that person. I see it as neutral. Then it's up to you to decide if you care and whether to continue using pejorative terms around that person. According to your post, if I called you names here and you got upset, all I'd have to say is that you're being "overly pc." It's not as easy as "overly pc."
I usually don't care if I piss off a hypersensitive person; I'll likely not modify my behavior at all. If it's someone logical, I'll probably watch what I say around them. For me, that's mostly swearing.
1. Does it bother/annoy/etc. you when people use the term "gay" to mean "stupid"? It's always bothered me, since the very first time I heard it used!
Im straight as an arrow and this bothers mean. unfortunately i grew up in a school where it was acceptable to say "gay" as a substitute for stupid. Being my ignorant 8th grader self, i developed a habit of saying it and i still slip to this day :/
i like how wanda sykes says "if you mean dumb"... too bad that's a pejorative term, too.
i like how wanda sykes says "if you mean dumb"... too bad that's a pejorative term, too.
its ok to insult dumb people though, because half the time they are so dumb they dont even realize you are insulting them...
its ok to insult dumb people though, because half the time they are so dumb they dont even realize you are insulting them...
I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure she meant it's pejorative because 'dumb' is meant to mean a mute/person who can't talk, and is being used to mean stupid.
its ok to insult dumb people though, because half the time they are so dumb they dont even realize you are insulting them...
I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure she meant it's pejorative because 'dumb' is meant to mean a mute/person who can't talk, and is being used to mean stupid.
I think (/hope) he was being sarcastic :/
its ok to insult dumb people though, because half the time they are so dumb they dont even realize you are insulting them...
I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure she meant it's pejorative because 'dumb' is meant to mean a mute/person who can't talk, and is being used to mean stupid.
I think (/hope) he was being sarcastic :/
if not that's totally gay...
sweet.
*internet tone reading fail*
Hardly anyone recognizes the origin of the term "dumb" (as evidenced here). I don't have any qualms about using it to describe something that lacks common sense. Many, many pejorative terms have now come to be adopted as non-pejorative terms--it's just a change in semantics. The n-word, used informally, is an example of this. When used in the appropriate context.
I think it's dumb (yes, dumb), non-productive, and impossible to walk around using only words that won't offend any single person. All people or groups of people have something worth ridiculing. Veg*ns sure do. I'd rather be an "equal-rights" offender because I think tiptoeing around particular groups actually marginalizes them. That probably sounds awful but I'm not that concerned with being politically correct and walking around with a stick up my ass.
i like how wanda sykes says "if you mean dumb"... too bad that's a pejorative term, too.
True.
Hardly anyone recognizes the origin of the term "dumb" (as evidenced here). I don't have any qualms about using it to describe something that lacks common sense. Many, many pejorative terms have now come to be adopted as non-pejorative terms--it's just a change in semantics. The n-word, used informally, is an example of this. When used in the appropriate context.
I think it's dumb (yes, dumb), non-productive, and impossible to walk around using only words that won't offend any single person. All people or groups of people have something worth ridiculing. Veg*ns sure do. I'd rather be an "equal-rights" offender because I think tiptoeing around particular groups actually marginalizes them. That probably sounds awful but I'm not that concerned with being politically correct and walking around with a stick up my ass.
To many black people there is no appropriate context for the n-word...ever.
I wonder how you would feel if the word "vegan" suddendly came to mean "stupid radical airhead bitch"....and the kids in your class were saying to each other "you're so vegan"........would you be offended, or would you smile and say "I'm not going to say anything because I'm so cool as to not be overly p.c.".
I think there's a balance and middle way somewhere, between being overly pc and being insensitive to people's feelings and between me being needlessly offended (such as when I hear"that's so gay" and me being justifibly upset enough to speak up (such as when someone uses the word faggot in a derogatory manner, or tells an offensive joke).
I also have to respect that when someone says they are offended, it's their right and not my place to tell them how they should and should not feel, shoving my agenda down their throat with a dismissal "you're being too p.c." I decide what I find offensive, and I have to allow others to decide that for themselves. I also have to decide when I'm going to speak up and when I'm not going to.
i agree about political correctness, kmk, i was just pointing out the incongruity in that vid.
i agree with you, tweety. i think it's everyone own responsibility to take things with a grain of salt, but it's also others responsibility to not be ridiculously offensive. it has nothing to do with being "p.c.", it just has to do with being considerate of others feelings.
if you don't care about offending people, that's your own deal. i think it's less about individuals being offended than it is about the fact that certain words even came to have the meanings that they do.
My comment about the n-word means that many people who are black (as well as people who are Indian, hispanic, etc.) like to use the n-word familiarly among each other. This is fact. I didn't say that some people don't like it. I said that some people use it in a positive way when its origins are negative. I'm not sure where your comment fits in with this, Tweety.
In the theoretical situation described, Tweety, I can't really say how I would respond, but if kids starting going around saying that something was "vegan," meaning "stupid," I would just ask them to think about what they are saying and whether it made sense. That is the same thing I do when they use the word "gay" in that context, which is almost never. I've heard it maybe once or twice in my teaching career. Maybe this is because of my expectations, I don't know.
Now, if an adult walked around saying "vegan" for stupid, or something, I would just disregard that person. Obviously they don't understand what vegan means. It's just...don't empower an understanding that is false. I guess that's my thing. Like, if someone is using gay as a synonym for stupid, obviously they don't understand what gay means. If I got all upset about it they would think that their understanding of the term is accurate.
I don't walk around using pejorative terms--you all know this. I just.....don't care that much. I'm not gonna do it because I don't care about offending people and my vocabulary is broad enough not to use them.
Hardly anyone recognizes the origin of the term "dumb" (as evidenced here). I don't have any qualms about using it to describe something that lacks common sense. Many, many pejorative terms have now come to be adopted as non-pejorative terms--it's just a change in semantics. The n-word, used informally, is an example of this. When used in the appropriate context.
I think it's dumb (yes, dumb), non-productive, and impossible to walk around using only words that won't offend any single person. All people or groups of people have something worth ridiculing. Veg*ns sure do. I'd rather be an "equal-rights" offender because I think tiptoeing around particular groups actually marginalizes them. That probably sounds awful but I'm not that concerned with being politically correct and walking around with a stick up my ass.
I don't think that makes you an equal rights offender. How you use language might be telling of your views of a set of people but that doesn't mean that you feel in society they ought to be treated as lessors.
Furthermore with dumb use of the word is key. Whilst it is an adjective in both sentences:
"he's dumb"(he is unable to speak)
"he's dumb"(he is stupid)
"that's so dumb"(the subject cannot mean it is unable to speak)
"you're so dumb"(the subject is unlikely to mean it's unable to speak)
Are just some telling things about the usage of the word.
Sometimes there is ambiguity, but we wouldn't refer to a person who is unable to speak as "that's".
The subject sounds more likely to be an action or idea than a physical entity.
It's the same with gay really.
I find there's a very detached view from most people I talk to about it. The only people I've spoken to who think of "gay=bad" have tended to be rather...well...dumb to be honest. There is obviously some over lap, and I don't necessarily agree with using those terms. I'm guilty of using dumb, not so much of using gay (I've done it in this thread in a jokey manner different from how it's usually jokey, as it's more, prohibited here).
Take that how you will. I think it highlights how inefficient our language is.
Hardly anyone recognizes the origin of the term "dumb" (as evidenced here). I don't have any qualms about using it to describe something that lacks common sense. Many, many pejorative terms have now come to be adopted as non-pejorative terms--it's just a change in semantics. The n-word, used informally, is an example of this. When used in the appropriate context.
I think it's dumb (yes, dumb), non-productive, and impossible to walk around using only words that won't offend any single person. All people or groups of people have something worth ridiculing. Veg*ns sure do. I'd rather be an "equal-rights" offender because I think tiptoeing around particular groups actually marginalizes them. That probably sounds awful but I'm not that concerned with being politically correct and walking around with a stick up my ass.
To many black people there is no appropriate context for the n-word...ever.
I wonder how you would feel if the word "vegan" suddendly came to mean "stupid radical airhead bitch"....and the kids in your class were saying to each other "you're so vegan"........would you be offended, or would you smile and say "I'm not going to say anything because I'm so cool as to not be overly p.c.".
I think there's a balance and middle way somewhere, between being overly pc and being insensitive to people's feelings and between me being needlessly offended (such as when I hear"that's so gay" and me being justifibly upset enough to speak up (such as when someone uses the word faggot in a derogatory manner, or tells an offensive joke).
I also have to respect that when someone says they are offended, it's their right and not my place to tell them how they should and should not feel, shoving my agenda down their throat with a dismissal "you're being too p.c." I decide what I find offensive, and I have to allow others to decide that for themselves. I also have to decide when I'm going to speak up and when I'm not going to.
I think it goes a bit beyond that in, it's your choice to be offended or not to be.
Furthermore I would argue that that situation is very different. It is a choice to be vegan.
However it is not a choice to be black, or to be gay.
I'm in no way defending the use of the N word just to clarify, but, the way in which language has adapted it would be very odd to equate the two. I think there are better examples out there, perhaps more relevant, like how the terms socialist, communist, get thrown around (usually without a second thought).
And now I've got Randy Marsh (from south park) filling out the word on the TV quiz live:
"people who annoy you"
"N-GGERS"
The camera man just leaning over to look at him, his hesitence to say the word...aahhh southpark :)>>>
My comment about the n-word means that many people who are black (as well as people who are Indian, hispanic, etc.) like to use the n-word familiarly among each other. This is fact. I didn't say that some people don't like it. I said that some people use it in a positive way when its origins are negative. I'm not sure where your comment fits in with this, Tweety.
In the theoretical situation described, Tweety, I can't really say how I would respond, but if kids starting going around saying that something was "vegan," meaning "stupid," I would just ask them to think about what they are saying and whether it made sense. That is the same thing I do when they use the word "gay" in that context, which is almost never. I've heard it maybe once or twice in my teaching career. Maybe this is because of my expectations, I don't know.
Now, if an adult walked around saying "vegan" for stupid, or something, I would just disregard that person. Obviously they don't understand what vegan means. It's just...don't empower an understanding that is false. I guess that's my thing. Like, if someone is using gay as a synonym for stupid, obviously they don't understand what gay means. If I got all upset about it they would think that their understanding of the term is accurate.
I don't walk around using pejorative terms--you all know this. I just.....don't care that much. I'm not gonna do it because I don't care about offending people and my vocabulary is broad enough not to use them.
You're a class act 100%. Just wanted to get your thoughts on if it was something personal to your lifestyle how you might personally feel and react. Sometimes I have to step outside myself to get a feel for others feelings, because I do care about people how they feel and what they think (expect conservative republican that is...they can kiss my ass...LOL)
Nevermind about the n-word sidetrack, that's too much of a tangent to get into. I understand what you're saying because the same thing happened to the word "queer", gay people turned a derogatory term and made it empowering by embracing it. Still there are those that don't like it under any circumstance and I totally disagree with them, but have to respect that.
You're a class act 100%.
Quite the compliment!
Just an aside about the word dumb - it originated to mean "he/she cannot speak". It was then taken and used in a colloquial sense as a synonym for stupid. I can see the parallels to the word "gay" here - a word describing a group of people, then taken and used as a derogatory term, thereby making the description of that group of people a derogatory term by association.
With the word dumb though, the use of it to mean stupid is so widespread now that even using it in its original context, to describe someone who cannot speak, is viewed as offensive by members of the Deaf community. Terms like "deaf-mute" and "deaf and dumb" are now seen as extremely ignorant, uneducated and offensive (and innacurate - just because a person doesn't speak your language doesn't mean they can't express ideas, have opinions and be educated in their language, therefore they are not dumb or mute/voiceless).
So seeing how hurtful that word has become to the people it once described, after being twisted by a paternalistic/oppressive majority into an insult, I can see why many gay people have a problem with people saying "gay" when they mean "stupid/shit/bad/lame".
I still say it without thinking sometimes, because when I was a kid it was used like that and I never thought about it. I have gay friends who don't have a problem with me saying it occasionally, who use it as a joke and find it funny. I also have both gay and straight friends who find it offensive. I would never call one of my Deaf friends "deaf and dumb", so I think it's not too big an ask for me to stop saying gay in any other context than to mean "homosexual". I'm working on it.
to jump in about "dumb" - to me this is the same as calling someone retarded. I understand that some words have been used this way for so long that people forget what the words actually mean, but I do think it's important to recognize ableism (or any other ism) when it occurs. I've been fortunate enough to be around people who are more aware of everyday ableism than I am, and am starting to realize that there is a HUGE amount of ableist language floating around (probably more than any other type of perjorative language, at least where I live). Words like dumb, crazy, nuts, lame...I know that when most people use these words they aren't meaning to insult someone who, say, uses a wheelchair when they say a word like lame, but the meaning is still there, and someone who recognizes that and identifies as such (or knows others who do) might not feel safe or respected. It is not about being politically correct in my mind. It's about being aware of how your language affects yourself, and people around you, whether or not the words you use apply to them.
The only thing I can speak of from experience is the use of "gay", "queer", etc (although I don't identify as homosexual). When I was in grade school, alot of kids used 'gay' as a negative word. This was around the time I came to realize that I was not straight, and while I'm sure most kids didn't care whether someone was actually gay when they used the word this way, it showed me that I could not talk to any of them about my feelings. Not my friends (who used the word), not my teachers (who never corrected the kids who said it, nor explained why it was bad to use that way), nor my parents (who didn't correct us.) I did have one teacher who told someone off for using the word "faggot" negatively in grade 6. I remember her telling the whole class that she never wanted to hear it, because "a faggot is a bundle of wood that you put on a fire, and no person deserves to be put on a fire" (or something to that effect). This was before I fully came out to myself but I will always remember that. The first time I ever heard any reference to queerness was in grade school, with my classmates using "gay" as an insult. I knew what it meant to be gay, and i saw the way the word was being used (very negatively), and of course, it made me feel confused, alienated and nervous, because I didn't feel sick or wrong, but I knew I had to hide this part of me. I was maybe 11 or 12.
Anyway, the point of this long-winded ramble is that regardless of how you MEAN to use a word like gay, dumb, lame, etc, it will always have the same meaning on some level, and you'd be better off using a word like ridiculous to get your feelings across. Otherwise you run the risk of hurting people and reinforcing the idea that these words are not oppressive and are thus fine to use. (disclaimer: I blurt out these words too sometimes. it's a habit to work your way out of, I suppose).
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