The food store place sounds like a cool idea akshully KMK, but there's some legal issues... When the church/mission takes the food, they (I believe) take the legal responsibility/liability for the food's spoilage/dangerousness/whatever. Whoever were to make some sort of storehouse for unsellables would have to take that responsibility. For this individual church, it's not a big deal because they only serve so many people, all people who are pretty desperate for food despite its condition. If there were a big ole storehouse for homeless persons + other impoverished persons, it would cover a much larger segment of society. If that were the case, the operation may be more befitting of a city or county government to undertake. However, state & federal (& county?) governments are all involved in food spoilage/storage rules. They'd have to bend their own rules to do this I think, effectively making certain rules for sellable foods, and lower standards for free food for the poor. It might be a cool system, but it gives the impression that wealthier people are entitled to better quality and fresher food, whereas it's ok if poor people's food is kinda spoiled and stale.
I might have taken your idea & changed it & ran with it, but this is what it made me think of. However, I believe there are some cities with systems like this, not with spoiled food, but with surplus. I think Montebello (in L.A. county) does this actually... I remember hearing something about it when they canceled their fireworks for 4th of July to go into that fund.

vallness: I don't think she specified the race of the educator. That may have been your assumption. As someone who grew up in L.A., I've had teachers of all races at each school I attended, including the school I currently attend. Sometimes it's a matter of the more educated educating the less educated - aka school.

eric: while the rate of heart disease may indeed be related to overconsumption of certain foods or overconsumption period, how can we effectively & ethically control what people eat and how much? It seems that overconsumption would not just be a problem of capitalism but any money-based or even trade-based economy. If one is more successful (by any measure - more money or more stuff to trade), then one can choose to eat more than others. Right?

I really like this discussion!

I agree with you on alot of that stuff Kate, especially about empowering people from the bottom up. I think this is related to the anti-capitalism thing in that people recognize that capitalism oppresses people, and in order to empower people it can be necessary to get out of that systemized oppression. It's hard to empower people sometimes, when we exist within all these constructs that oppress people without us realizing it does alot of the time. I didn't mean to imply that you were ignorant about privilege - but I do feel like it needs to be mentioned in this discussion, and it hadn't really been talked about yet.

I also feel like the majority of people (around here anyway) who are opposed to things like capitalism are not just trying to "knock down the top" with their bare hands...I can only speak from my own experience, and from that I can say that people around here are exploring the ways in which they can improve things. Most of them have jobs, many are students, and the majority are doing what they feel they can in order to help things along. At the very least, consciousness raising is occurring and that is very important. Many organizations in my town make a point of including an equity statement on their job descriptions that encourages applicants to list and describe any barriers they may face when it comes to employment (or other things), such as being a member of a marginalized group(s). Having worked for one of these places, I know this is not just for show and it's great to see employers encouraging applicants to be open about their circumstances and identities without fear of discrimination.

Anyway, I'm totally going off on a tangent here. One more main point I wanted to mention is that I'm not entirely opposed to exchanging money for goods/services - but I would prefer to put my money right into the hands of whoever made those goods or provided me with those services, instead of a company that works as a hierarchy where the people who actually did the work that brought me my food/whatever don't always get much money. I agree that it's valuable to have people around with various skills and that not everyone needs to do every single thing to provide for themselves. I do think it's important to be choosy about who we go to for these things (ie. local farmers for produce, vs a supermarket). I'm definitely not someone who manages this 100% of the time though.

Last point - Quintess, I think we're thinking along the same lines about things here. When people make a point of being aware of how our actions affect others, we can make more informed decisions about them. And alot of us here already seem to do that! :) KMK, I am going to respectfully disagree with you about this:

I have to admire the people who have the energy to at least try and 'fight the system', because it can seem like a totally hopeless struggle.

See, I don't really admire putting your efforts toward something when you know it has no effect.

If I felt this way, I wouldn't be vegan. It could definitely be argued that following a vegan lifestyle does nothing to change farming conditions (especially since the whole industry is so supply-demand driven...if someone wanted to change the system, it might be more effective to start buying things like 'free run' eggs and whatnot. I don't, because I'm not comfortable with how those farms are run, even if the birds aren't caged.) By purchasing vegan vs non-vegan items, I am not changing the system, but I'm not supporting it either. That is very important to me, and it always will be. It's too easy to become convinced that no matter what I do, it's not enough, so I acknowledge that what I AM doing is still less harmful than what I COULD be doing. I think this is the same idea behind freeganism.

i am not saying that i am against education, but i think that there are many ways to be educated besides the traditional schooling that KMK seems to be talking about.  often times people are encouraged to leave their communities behind so that they can "rise up" and then come back and "educate" their "ignorant" communities and then they magically will not be in poverty.  i just don't agree with this kind of thinking.  i feel it relies on capitalistic thinking ie: the american dream.  well imo the american dream is a myth to keep people certain people feeling good about this country.  i am by no means saying that no one has ever experienced this, but it does seem that when people do, they in turn have to or choose to leave behind the very communities that are not doing so well in this capitalistic society.  
i think that more and more people are comming up with ways to educate themselves and their communites outside of the system that is in place.  and there are people who are taking back education which i think is one huge step in combating capitalism. the diy movement and buying second hand and even dumpstering for that matter make use of our own skills that we all have and in turn means less reliance on the wasteful capitalistic lifestyle.  
but hey, if capitalism is working for you, which you said it is, then why would you feel the need for any of the above?  just like if the health care system is working for someone as is, then why would they feel the need for it to change?  they don't want to have to be put out and potentially have to be treated the way common people are treated, right?

Let's imagine some "if everyone did it" scenarios:

If everyone were a "freegan" and lived only off of food found in the trash, it would only be a matter of time before merchants noticed that sales were 0 and would stop purchasing food from farmers. Farmers would stop producing food for sale because they wouldn't make any money off of it. A lot of people would be out of jobs, and eventually there wouldn't be any food for freegans to eat.
It doesn't mean the human race would die out, but people would probably have to start growing/slaughtering their own foods. However, not everyone would want to do this, or they wouldn't have the land to do so, so a bartering system would be set up, which would eventually turn into a monetary system to make things easier.
So basically, we go back to square one.

Now, if everyone were an "ideal vegan" and either grew their own food or purchased it from a local, organic farmer as much as possible, then animal exploitation would be nearly non-existent and grocery chains would have to take on some major changes for the better, or close completely (and farmer's markets and co-ops would take over.)

I don't really see a problem with dumpstering on a small scale, as long as we positively contribute to responsible practices to up the demand and thus the supply.

Another major change we need to make in order for things to run as smoothly as possible is lower our population growth rate. It seems as though countries with the smallest economic gaps are the ones with the lowest growth rates. I don't think it's a coincidence.

hmm.  first of all i don't think that many people do dumpster dive honestly and i really don't see it as a threat to capitalism.  ha ha!  if only it where that easy.  but does anyone really not see the benefits of using trash that really isn't trash?  really?  "one persons trash is another persons treasure." 

again education is only PART of the solution (i know thats been said).  the other part is money and access to resources, which personally i think is the BIGGER part of the picture.  so if a person knows how to use a condom, but there are no condoms, then what happens?  as far as i know condoms are not free, somebodies buying them.  not to mention there is also the issue of a communities culture being looked at as a problem.  maybe i'm not understanding, but it kinda feels like the whole welfare mothers debate which is annoying to me.  i never hear about rich people having children and how that is adding to the over population problem.  poor people just need to stop having babies and die off.  (okay i know that sounds extreme, but that's how it seems sometimes to me).

little house on the prairie?  wow.  i don't think that every single person needs to know how to do everything that needs to get done.  but i do think it would be really great if people were taught how to be somewhat self sufficient.  knowing where the things we consume come from and the work that was put into them is only positive.  there could be a whole lot of skill sharing, bartering, etc.  money dismisses all of that, and the people that have the most money probably wouldn't survive if the unknowns weren't supplying everything they needed, while barley even making enough money to survive.  i don't know, maybe i don't have a clue, but it seems to me when you know the true value of something it becomes more than just another thing that was purchased.

of course we all want time off to be able to live life to the fullest. we all want that, but because of our capitalistic society certain people don't have the luxury for that kind of thing.  do i have all of the answers?  absolutely not.  but, i do think its important to see things more holistically.  poor people are not the problem that can be magically fixed with a little education thrown in there.  no, i believe it is the elite that need to rise above their greed and selfishness and realize that profiting off of poor people is completely unethical and makes them criminals.  these criminals have been making many of us conspirators that support their cause through capitalism. 

some of the ways that i try and step away from that are by supporting community farms, bartering with friends, shopping locally, and not buying into all the freaky norms that capitalism leads us to believe are true.  i'm definitely not perfect by any means.  i wish i could say that i never buy shit thats made in other countries, etc.  but as a person with meager means myself, i too am trapped by this system in certain ways, because that's how it works, right?

yup, that's what i think too.