Freeganism, and other such things
A carry over discussion that started here: http://vegweb.com/index.php?topic=28732.msg335039#msg335039
We've had the label discussion a billion times, but I still don't understand the desire to call oneself something without following the basic principles of that thing. I mean, freegan=free + vegan, does it not?!
That aside, I also think it's silly that we have like 98,987 spin off terms, such as the "meagan." Geez.
I love KMK's elephant thing.
I like supporting the farmers, producers, and other people who work to "do good" in the world, and make it a more sustainable, better, and healthier place.
eta: Also, this "argument"
To everyone that swears they're a diehard vegan - please - i don't think such a thing hardly exists. Do you avoid any/all sports that use animal products, do you avoid airplanes that have leather seats, the list can go and and on...and on.
is so tired and absurd. We live in a freaking NON VEGAN FRIENDLY society. This doesn't mean it's a free for all, be vegan, but do whatever you want. My car might have animal products, oh well, I guess I'll eat some dead raccoon. I mean, give me a break!
Also, I don't think I've ever seen leather seats on an airplane. Must be a first class thing.
But if something is going to go to waste anyway, it should be used up.
But I don't support eating meat, because it gives off the idea that it's healthy and ok.
Do the farmers not get the money (for produce) if it doesn't sell? Doesn't a grocery store pay up-front?
There's nothing wrong with part-time freeganism and using what should have been used.
Capitalism does tie in with veganism; it's part of the reason animals are used as property and only for money.
Oh, I don't have any problem with getting free stuff, and using up something that's going to be wasted. I absolutely hate waste. I'm just not going to go around illegally rummaging for vegetables. I don't really care if other people do it.
I'm lucky to have a great non-profit store that I 100% trust.
Oh, I don't have any problem with getting free stuff, and using up something that's going to be wasted. I absolutely hate waste. I'm just not going to go around illegally rummaging for vegetables. I don't really care if other people do it.
I'm lucky to have a great non-profit store that I 100% trust.
But freeganism is to help combat waste, in part.
What is a non-profit store? That doesn't make sense to me.
But freeganism is to help combat waste, in part.
I understand that. ?
What is a non-profit store? That doesn't make sense to me.
eta: http://www.goodfoodstore.com/
I totally, 100% understand the idea of using waste. I agree with that (duh). But I don't think that eating out of the garbage does a damn thing to solve the hideous problems that we have relating to perfectly useful food and items going to waste. Things that DO help solve the problems are choosing products that have low packaging/wasted parts, bringing your own containers to the grocery store, not wasting food, etc.--all those common sense things that we already know.
Waste is a reality. It is never, ever, ever going to go away, we can be sure of that. If we want to eat, drink, have houses, have schools, have medical services, and on and on and on. So instead of laboring toward this pipe dream that there will one day be no waste, figure out more and more ways to reconcile your daily life with low-waste practices. Remedying the waste problems in this country can't happen overnight, and freeganism is missing the point entirely. We need to REFORM our systems, and purchase from the right places, not boycott them entirely. Actually, freeganism doesn't even boycott them--it works within them.
My major question is--people who reject capitalism: how do you propose we structure society so that everyone can obtain the goods and services they need? How do we produce them to begin with? Resources and human capital are essential. And if no one is producing them, what do you propose? We all hunt and scavenge? It sucks that industries are exploitative, but we need to figure out how to reform them, rather than eliminate them. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.
Just because animals (and humans) have been exploited via capitalism doesn't mean that capitalism is the invalid piece. The exploitation is. Animals can just as easily be exploited under socialism, or anarchy, or whatever other system. The logic that "animal exploitation happens under capitalism, and animal exploitation is bad, so capitalism must be bad" is faulty.
My main thing is, live your life in a way that the means you are using match the ends. Veganism does that. I'm not entirely clear about what the desired ends are for freeganism, but they sure don't involve a society where everyone makes a living via dumpster diving. That just doesn't make sense.
I totally, 100% understand the idea of using waste. I agree with that (duh). But I don't think that eating out of the garbage does a damn thing to solve the hideous problems that we have relating to perfectly useful food and items going to waste. Things that DO help solve the problems are choosing products that have low packaging/wasted parts, bringing your own containers to the grocery store, not wasting food, etc.--all those common sense things that we already know.
Waste is a reality. It is never, ever, ever going to go away, we can be sure of that. If we want to eat, drink, have houses, have schools, have medical services, and on and on and on. So instead of laboring toward this pipe dream that there will one day be no waste, figure out more and more ways to reconcile your daily life with low-waste practices. Remedying the waste problems in this country can't happen overnight, and freeganism is missing the point entirely. We need to REFORM our systems, and purchase from the right places, not boycott them entirely. Actually, freeganism doesn't even boycott them--it works within them.
My major question is--people who reject capitalism: how do you propose we structure society so that everyone can obtain the goods and services they need? How do we produce them to begin with? Resources and human capital are essential. And if no one is producing them, what do you propose? We all hunt and scavenge? It sucks that industries are exploitative, but we need to figure out how to reform them, rather than eliminate them. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.
Just because animals (and humans) have been exploited via capitalism doesn't mean that capitalism is the invalid piece. The exploitation is. Animals can just as easily be exploited under socialism, or anarchy, or whatever other system. The logic that "animal exploitation happens under capitalism, and animal exploitation is bad, so capitalism must be bad" is faulty.
My main thing is, live your life in a way that the means you are using match the ends. Veganism does that. I'm not entirely clear about what the desired ends are for freeganism, but they sure don't involve a society where everyone makes a living via dumpster diving. That just doesn't make sense.
On a side note, I think the trend to subscribe to deviant lifestyles and call them by cutesy hybrid names is interesting. It makes me think that people are just hungering for their own labels--little identity badges of nonconformity. Jeez, what's next? All of us have our own consumption patterns, but we don't have to name them all. It makes things so convoluted.
wow, I didn't think a thread about this would include such strong opinions! I'm not super familiar with 'freeganism' and the like, though I do know a quite a few folks who dumpster. I don't really see a problem with it. Aside from the risk one takes by dumpstering possibly rotten food, there don't seem to be many downsides to it to outweigh the good points (good points being that these people, many of them students and/or struggling financially, get some great food without shelling out the money they might need for rent, health care, tuition etc, and much usable food is no longer wasted. Many of these folks are also involved in things like Food Not Bombs or local groups which provide meals to people living in poverty, using dumpstered food.)
I guess alot of people would wonder why someone wouldn't just use a food bank or something instead. I can't speak for anyone else, but I could understand why someone would want to salvage perfectly good food that would otherwise be thrown out, instead of/in addition to using a food bank (and I do know many people who use them!) As for legal repercussions...I don't even know whether it's illegal here in Canada. I've seen people jump onto dumpsters sitting on the sidewalks of busy downtown streets during the afternoon, and not be given any trouble by the businesses using the dumpster, or by police or anyone else.
It's more complicated when opposing capitalism comes into play, but not everyone is going to use the same methods to combat capitalist structures. I do agree that capitalism contributes to oppression in various forms, whether it be promoting class divisions, power imbalances over goods that everyone needs such as food, or enforcing the individualist attitudes that many North Americans seem to be brought up on (ie. make the most money for yourself without thinking about anyone else, and no amount is ever enough). I personally would love to see more trades going on, for example, I know folks who have substantial vegetable & fruit gardens in their backyards, and can't always eat everything before it goes rotten, so they'll give it away in exchange for something, like help moving things, fixing bikes, skill sharing, etc. I love seeing people do things like this because it not only works outside a capitalist framework, but it encourages people to come together and actually form relationships with each other. It's very refreshing to come across people actively seeking to learn from and provide for each other, with a balanced give and take going. I wish I could be more like the folks I know who do this sort of thing, as I think it's a much healthier way of living than just paying money to get whatever goods or services we need. It might not be realistic to expect to live solely in this manner and without money altogether, but it's certainly a step in the right direction. :)
I've worked in two places with significant food waste. Rarely was the food thrown out when it was actually *bad* (ok, maybe the meat/dairy), but stale or not selling quality. Old cake, old bread, hard baguettes, and the like at Trader Joe's and a sh*tload of "old" pastries at Starbucks (I once took home a whole package of blueberry oat bars that were past their date, and they stayed good (in the fresh way) for a week!). Both businesses had arrangements with a church that was supposed to pick up the food for their homeless customers. But, since they had a huge amount of places they did this with, they maybe came to each place about once a week in the end (and we had this waste every day). But, it's not like we simply could have ordered less - purchasing habits are kind of strange. Sometimes at TJ's we'd be sold out of "day bread" by 6 pm. Other days hardly anyone bought it. Same thing with Starbucks pastries - sometimes we couldn't keep marble cake in stock, other times we disposed of two whole loaves. Both of these businesses, as businesses, make an effort to minimize waste. Especially Starbucks - I've seen the pastry order forms and there's not a whole lot of profit there. They're more to bring the customers in to buy drinks, where the profit is. So both places are motivated to keep orders low enough to minimize waste but not get unhappy customers who can't find what they want.
So, we have a huge amount of waste, with safe but not-quite-as-palatable food. We'd save it for the church, and when they didn't come, we threw it out. Depending on the management, sometimes it went straight into the trash the same night just because we knew they probably wouldn't come 'til Sunday.
So yeah, if some random person wanted to go through our dumpster and get free stale bread, pastries, and whatever, then power to them. I'd be happier if we didn't have 50 loaves of artisan bread going to the trash. But the whole freegan thing gets complicated & weird if you're talking roadkill or the pizza your office ordered for lunch. Yes, both foods that go to waste, but the first is potentially dangerous and the second has unclear economic consequences.
I don't think eating out of a dumpster fights The Man in anyway, at least as long as there are few freegans. But, if you're poor and willing to risk it...
KMK, isn't 'vegan' another one of those labels too? Objectively we're more like herbivores (+ lots of factory processing), right?
Btw, I knew someone across the way from where I lived who picked through the pastries in my work's dumpster, but it wasn't for political reasons. He wasn't totally dirt poor, but it was free food.
Sometimes at TJ's and often at Starbucks, the employees would take home some leftovers if we wanted them. Technically, that's freeganism, except those items hadn't yet touched the dumpster. Still trash, but didn't yet have the dumpster stigma. I'm sure this happens at other food prep places/grocers too.
KMK, isn't 'vegan' another one of those labels too?
Yup! But what I mean is, vegan can encompass any variety of consumption patterns. We don't have to label the vegans who eat trashy food and the health food vegans and the vegans who like to eat oatmeal for breakfast, and the vegans who eat meat if it died by natural (or vehicular) causes, etc. I feel like, the more specific we get, the more confusing things are. I mean, I recycle all the time; I don't need to label myself a recyclegan or something. I don't really care if someone does, but meh, whatever.
I liked reading your response Tino--the only thing that struck me about it is that, not only are there different ways to combat capitalism, but some of us aren't trying to combat it! I think it's soooo important that we are able to pay for the goods we need, rather than produce them all ourselves--it's one of the cornerstones of modern society. Otherwise people wouldn't get anything done! I'm not really interested in living in a society where I just live to live, you know? I want to live to DO something.
I agree, fb, eating out of a dumpster has zero effect on any institution. I'm not AGAINST it, if people want to do it, but I don't think it has any effect.
Sometimes at TJ's and often at Starbucks, the employees would take home some leftovers if we wanted them. Technically, that's freeganism, except those items hadn't yet touched the dumpster. Still trash, but didn't yet have the dumpster stigma. I'm sure this happens at other food prep places/grocers too.
That's good. The problem is that the waste products aren't getting funneled to the proper places. There needs to be some kind of system that is responsible for collecting waste products on, say, a daily or weekly basis from all municipal food places, and then distributing them to where they are needed. A system that isn't a financial burden to the businesses. I guess FNB and other organizations function in that capacity sometimes, but there needs to be an actual system. Like a food bank/store where you can have a certain spending allowance based on income. I dunno. Just talking out of my ass here, but you get the idea.
Food is wasted because businesses to see a financial incentive for doing anything else with it (which would require labor or money or transportation). We need some kind of incentives not to waste, so that everyone is happy.
a bit more on capitalism...KMK, I have to disagree with your point that capitalism is not necessarily exploitative. In my mind at least, it is exploitative by definition. I can see where you're coming from with the animal exploitation idea, but I think it's important not to forget the people who are involved in the industries we're talking about. For instance, a company might own farms where animals are treated with the highest level of respect and cared for immaculately, but money needs to go into that, and so the company might charge more for their goods (which leaves lower class people not having access to them), and/or lowering their pay rates for their employees (which might mean that workers cannot afford their living expenses, or to care for their families, and if they aren't fortunate enough to have health coverage, they might not be able to afford things they might need for chronic health issues/other health issues). Essentially, when I think of capitalism, I think of a pyramid scheme where there are many folks on the bottom who work hard, but all the money ends up at the tip, in the hands of very few people. It's a power imbalance that I think is the main fault of capitalism (and yet also the main goal - to put as much money as possible into the hands of the folks in positions of higher power in an industry, at the lowest cost). For example, I was talking to a woman who works at a Tim Horton's (coffee place) on campus the other day, who has worked there for 3 years and gets paid $9.75/hour. THREE YEARS. Minimum wage here in Ontario is $9.50/hour. Tim Horton's is Canada's most popular coffee chain and raked in $77.8 million in NET profits, during the SECOND QUARTER of the year! And this location specifically is a University cafe, which some might expect to pay fairer wages than regular old chain franchises.
Basically, I wanted to point out that while those of us in more privileged positions, who are able to get to places to purchase things like food and clothing without much fuss, don't have to think about the ways in which capitalism negatively effects people, because we are privileged enough to subscribe to it and don't see any direct negative impact on ourselves. But not everyone has this privilege, and many people do experience terrible repercussions of living in a society that thrives off of businesses that widen the gaps between class groups. I don't know what a reasonable method of initiating change might be, this seems like a monster problem and it's quite daunting to think about. How easy do you think it would be to convince the white, straight, non-disabled, upper-class, heterosexual men who often own or manage large companies to give up their millions of dollars in earnings so that they can be distributed evenly to all their employees? :-\ I have to admire the people who have the energy to at least try and 'fight the system', because it can seem like a totally hopeless struggle. If someone is content with dumpster diving in order to avoid supporting capitalist businesses, I'm not going to shoot them down...it might be the most practical form of direct action they can take, and even if it doesn't directly bring down The Man, it at least avoids contributing to an oppressive system.
I think this is the mindset many vegans have. Eat vegan and stop supporting animal exploitation. If someone wanted to take more direct action on changing the farming industry, they would have to go beyond just eating vegan, but making that choice to consume plant foods is still an important step.
I have to admire the people who have the energy to at least try and 'fight the system', because it can seem like a totally hopeless struggle.
See, I don't really admire putting your efforts toward something when you know it has no effect.
I still think that a lot of reform needs to happen in our society--a LOT--but I don't think it's capitalism that CAUSES these things. I think there are just too many other factors and values that contribute to economic gaps. Educational inequity, for example. Yeah, it's really really hideous how poorly workers are paid, but they haven't been given the tools to reach a higher platform, i.e. an adequate education, which is our fault as a society. But I agree that it is TOTALLY not OK for CEOs to earn millions of dollars at the hands of the rest of us. The problem is how the wealth is distributed within the companies, which needs to be reformed somehow.
Let's look at a country with a smaller economic gap than ours. Say, Norway--Norway has one of the highest standards of living and GDP. They have a mixed economy--some free market and some government run industries. They have high worker wages and less of a gap between rich and poor--they're more egalitarian. I wonder how that came to be. But they work within a capitalistic framework.
I don't know any example of non-capitalist countries where economic gaps aren't a problem. Cuba? China? Yeahhh.
Precedent shows that overthrowing capitalism is not a solution. Not by far.
(Credit to AC's P for teaching me about Norway.)
I liked reading your response Tino--the only thing that struck me about it is that, not only are there different ways to combat capitalism, but some of us aren't trying to combat it! I think it's soooo important that we are able to pay for the goods we need, rather than produce them all ourselves--it's one of the cornerstones of modern society. Otherwise people wouldn't get anything done! I'm not really interested in living in a society where I just live to live, you know? I want to live to DO something.
KMK - to add to my last post, not everyone can afford what you or I might pay for goods and services, even the most basic ones like food. We have enough privilege that we're able to think about living to do things, but there are sooo many people in our same societies who don't have the luxury of thinking of anything besides living to live. This is why I think it's so important to be aware of how things work and what we're supporting, because there are systems in place that ensure that some folks live in poverty and some live in affluence, and this is not right. I'm sure we as a society would have the means to provide for everyone, if those of us with more power and privilege gave up our luxuries and lived a little more simply. At least, I like to think so.
In the past twenty or so odd years, we have really seen an explosion in waste, packaging and commercial products. In the past and pretty much all over the world getting the full value out of everything was common place. We all have grown up in a generation where disposable and expendable have little or no foreseeable consequence.
Freegan and vegan are pop culture terms.
When was safe to say that rummaging through the trash and eating a diet merely vegetal based was a hip thing to do? New economic situations drive the creativity of the resourceful. Pulling from past trends. In the past people resorting to scavenging or not affording luxuries of a complete diet were typically reserved for the lowest class.
I really think this is more a class issue.
KMK - to add to my last post, not everyone can afford what you or I might pay for goods and services, even the most basic ones like food. We have enough privilege that we're able to think about living to do things, but there are sooo many people in our same societies who don't have the luxury of thinking of anything besides living to live. This is why I think it's so important to be aware of how things work and what we're supporting, because there are systems in place that ensure that some folks live in poverty and some live in affluence, and this is not right. I'm sure we as a society would have the means to provide for everyone, if those of us with more power and privilege gave up our luxuries and lived a little more simply. At least, I like to think so.
Oh please, I know this! Not to be rude, but really, it's kind of condescending to be like, "By the way, in case you didn't know, there are people who live in poverty." No shit. I don't think any of us are that ignorant. I know very well how poverty affects people's daily lives--a good 90% of my kids live in pretty severe poverty. I am familiar with these hideous economic/social gaps. When I speak, I'm not just speaking as some privileged white person looking out for her own interests. I have a little more sense of the big picture than that, thanks.
When I said I want to live in a society where I live for more than just to live, I was referring to something different entirely. We need people who specialize in providing all the basic services we need--like, we're never going to be a society where everyone grows their own food and makes their own clothes, nor do I desire that. That's all I was saying. Nothing to do with the other stuff.
eta: While I'm on the topic, THE biggest thing a person can do to fight class disparities is teach. For people born into poverty, their ONLY way out is through education with an aim of college readiness. Every time you prepare a kid for higher education, you help break the cycle for his or her family. Which equals more empowered people able to advocate on behalf of oppressed classes. We need soooo many more teachers and administrators who believe that all kids deserve an equal education, and who work toward this everyday. It's underlying factors like these that we need to fix--empower people from the bottom up--rather than laboring under the notion that you'll be able to knock down the top with your bare hands.
In the past and pretty much all over the world getting the full value out of everything was common place.
Lots of other things were true of past society that we don't want. Hunger, disease, high infant mortality, laboring from dawn til dusk, dying at a young age--just because people used to do it that way doesn't mean it's a good thing (though reusing things certainly is). People got the full value out of things due to necessity, not some moral high ground. It's easy to see the past through rose-colored lenses. People have this notion that things were so much better in the "old days" before The Man came around. It simply isn't true.
I do agree that we need to have better systems for not allowing resources to go to waste, and more value for reusing things. I don't think throwing free markets out the window is essential to that. Just better regulation and consumer behavior which favors companies who are the best at doing that.
I can understand people's reasoning on this, but for me it all boils down to: Do the best, highest action that you can. Just because you can't be perfect does not mean that you should just say it doesn't matter.
This reminds me of a discussion I had w/ my 6-yr-old daughter (a vegan) this morning. She said her friend told her that being vegan is just as harmful as eating meat because plants are alive too. But, what she realized through talking it out with me is that even if it incurs a very small amount of karma (or whatever you want to label it) to eat plants, it doesn't mean that it's to nearly the same degree as eating animals. You can't just starve to death, you have to eat something. And eating a vegan diet is unequivocally the least harmful, most beneficial diet. Period.
Anyway, I just find it interesting that all of her friends are always trying to convince her of the ills of being vegan. And, coming from someone with a BA in Philosophy (me), the arguments are always really illogical.
Sorry if I got off of the point here...I know this is a freeganism topic! But maybe this relates too...
KMK i would hope that you can reread your posts and see just how condescending and privileged you sound. i agree that education is important, but i also don't believe in the white educator lifting up the poor and oppressed. it's just not as easy as that, and capitalism has a big part in why its not easy. capitalism relies on certain people being poor so that they can get these people to make products for their capitalistic society for dirt cheap which in turn means they can sell to their consumers in this capitalistic society for less than what someone who is being paid well would sell them for (even though what they are selling is being sold at sometimes a 100 percent profit rate). this i'm sure you know. educating oppressed people is not going to stop this! they have first hand experience. being able to consume whatever without having to ever learn how to make or even meet the people who did for that matter it is flat out privilege. especially when it says made in china, Indonesia, hungry, etc. don't see those items saying made in norway. norway may have really great things going on but if you look at the ethnic make up of that country it might give you a clue as to why.
many poorer communities in the us are taking it upon themselves to teach their communities about self sustainability because it is empowering, saves money, and builds community which is REALLY doing something. this also takes money out of the capitalistic hands that do nothing but further oppress poor people.
its easy to say that capitalism isn't evil when it can make certain peoples lives so much easier and leave room to go on fancy vacations, go to the gym, etc that one wouldn't have time to do if they "wasted" their time on sustainability. i just feel your argument is missing a lot of points and its easy to see why. hopefully you will really do some research on capitalism and how it is not only affecting the poor in the us but also the people in developing countries who are not being helped by it either but instead are being made pawn in this corrupt system.
oh yeah, i am certainly not fetishizing countries such as cuba or china, so please don't use that kind of argumentation.
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