Christianity
I am not really a "christian" myself but I see myself as a good, decent person. I don't really put too much into the bible, I think it is a book full of legends meant to teach moral lessons. I especially believe in the 10 commandments with particular emphasis on "thou shall not kill". I personally believe that it means "thou shall not kill" NOT "thou shall not kill humans but it is okay to kill animals". So I don't eat meat, and I try to avoid dairy and eggs.
My stepmom is an avid catholic. But I think she has a warped way of seeing things because I know other catholics who are really cool. Tonight there was a commercial about preventing animal abuse and they showed animals who had been abused. Of course since I love animals I got kind of riled up and said that I hate animal abuse, it just makes me so mad. THen I mentioned that the meat industry is the worse abusers of them all turturing pigs, cows and chickens. I said something about how it is wrong to kill animals and that is why I don't eat meat. She then argued with me that God gave humans "dominion" over animals so we can do with them as we want. I disagreed and said that animal abuse is wrong. She agree that animal abuse is not right but killing an animal is okay. I dropped the subject, I knew that it was an arguement that would just get her and me both angry and nothing would be resolved, we are both absolute with our beliefs.
Ugh, I am still steamed up about it. I would say I hate christianity if I didn't know avid practicing christians who were decent people. But the whole "dominion" over animals thing in the bible really P's me off. I don't belive that for a second. SHe also argues with me when I say that humans are animals themselves, especially that we are apes. Oh, that made her mad, and I further P'ed her off when I said that I believe in evolution.
I am so P'ed off right now. I try, really try hard to be respectful of other peoples beliefs, but hers are SO different than mine. I just feel like most other people in the world have closed eyes, and that myself, and other's on this website especially have their eyes open, minds open, can see things for how they truely are and sees the horror in the world, but unfortunately the rest of the world sees this fictional book they call the bible they take as absolute fact and can not see beyond it, they can't even begin to open their minds to the posibilty that there is a whole world, whole universe other than what the bible says. THere are so many things that constradict what the bible says, but instead of questioning the bible, they question their own two eyes, they think the scientists are liars, they hide away and refuse to hear the facts, all so that they can keep on beliving in some book that has almost no scientific backing. I just don't get that. Except for the 10 commandments, I think that the world would be a better place today if the bible never came to be. I really belive that.
Do you agree?
This belongs on the debate board. You'll get a better response if you move it there, I bet.
I asked vml to move the thread to the debate board.
hrm....okay. well, I will preface this with pointing out I am NO WAY what one would consider "Christian"....(I Iwill leave it at that, if anyone is interested in my 'spiritual' practices, it belongs on a DIFFERENT thread!)
I do have issues with what you said in the following examples:
1) They *DO* have various hystorical/archeological evidence proving the following happened (maybe not in the same spot as 'originally' thought....but SO many things get muddied in the transaltion process!): The Exodus out of Egypt (they actually found chariots in the middle of a reed sea where there is geological evidence of an earthquake(s) during this time. These earthquakes could have also caused a lot of the plagues mentioned therein.) There were 3 or 4 men named Jesus who were crucified in the proposed timeline as his death. There are remenants of the majority of the communities mentioned throughout the texts....etc
2) Myths and parables are invariably based on SOME form of fact....Heck even Mother Goose rhymes contain forgotten lore and information on herbalism and political troubles (ie Lion and the Unicorn, Mary, Mary Quite Contrary, etc). I am a folklorist/storyteller passed down by way of my mother....If you wish more proof in this, I'd be more than happy to oblige.
3) One of the things I enjoy pointing out in the belief that humans have dominion over animals is that means you are custodians of them, therefore we are responsible for their welfare and keeping them well and healthy
There were 3 or 4 men named Jesus who were crucified in the proposed timeline as his death.
Really?
SQ, just let it go. You're gonna have to agree to disagree--getting upset about it will wear you out. And really, pissing her off isn't going to accomplish anything.
Lots of people are Christian but don't follow the particular mindsets you are seeing. You base your understandings on a very minute, outspoken set of Christians. You can be Christian and still be logical, scientific, and vegan. :)
WORD.
Remember that any collective is made up of individuals, each with their background, mindset and rules for life. I myself am a Christian but I am aware that the way I see my faith and practice it is very different from the perspective of many of my friends. That's part of what creates "denominations"--people foregather with others who think and practice like they do.
I think a lot of people out there reject the idea of animals having intelligence, feelings etc in order not to think about how they are treated. And the whole "having dominion over creation" can and should be interpreted as a directive to care for the creation, not destroy it for gain and profit.
I'm sorry you're having a rough time, SQ. But rest assured we're not all insensitive asswholes. There are some, but there are asswholes in any collective.
I've been reading these responses and trying to think of what I want to say. I especially liked what Yabbit (as always) and Moonkeymama had to say. I was a very solid Southern Baptist for the first 22 years of my life. I've always been an all or nothing kinda girl, so when I was a christian, I was the best christian I could be. That being said, I always questioned the tendancy that some christians have to be judgmental and the lack of compassion that many people who ascribe to christianity seem to have. Obviously, I realize now that no one is perfect and in every "group" of people, there are some that reflect badly on the rest.
Like others have said, the bible is not the problem. I don't even think christianity or religion is inherently the problem. The problem is with people who can't see past their own beliefs enough to have compassion and understanding for others. In explaining my choice to be vegan, I often use christianity as a comparison. So many people have a negative view of vegans, often because of negative, militant "paint throwing" extremists. I think it's the same with christians. Although I am no longer christian, I am close to many who are compassionate, benevolent people who honestly try to live as they think jesus would.
My point...I don't like to be generalized and lumped into a category with extremist vegans who focus on the "idea" whether than the "ideal." The same holds true for christians.
Oh, and I'm not trying to be too critical SQ, but I couldn't help noticing your frequent usage of the word "they" in your original post. This goes back to the whole "generalization" thing. Not all christians are part of "they." Does that make any sense?
WORD.
Remember that any collective is made up of individuals, each with their background, mindset and rules for life. I myself am a Christian but I am aware that the way I see my faith and practice it is very different from the perspective of many of my friends. That's part of what creates "denominations"--people foregather with others who think and practice like they do.
I think a lot of people out there reject the idea of animals having intelligence, feelings etc in order not to think about how they are treated. And the whole "having dominion over creation" can and should be interpreted as a directive to care for the creation, not destroy it for gain and profit.
I'm sorry you're having a rough time, SQ. But rest assured we're not all insensitive asswholes. There are some, but there are asswholes in any collective.
This.
This too.
My husb and I are christian, Lutheran in fact and our entire extended family is as well. Do they eat meat? Tons of it. Do they hunt/fish? Yeah. IT is my choice to be vegetarian mostly for health reasons. I do believe that we as humans are to be caretakers of all of creation, we can use it for our benefit, but need to use it wisely. For some, they can eat meat and do so wisely, as humanely as possible, others don't care. I choose not too, but I know that decision is very upsetting to many in the family.
I read it somewhere else that many people, even non christian/religious persons don't see the harm in eating meat because they see animals beneath us. They get angry when shown an alternative because it goes against everything they have ever known, and everything anyone else has told them. That is very hard to hear, and makes most people very uncomfortable. As strongly as many on this site feel about NOT eating/consuming animal products, there are others who feel just as strongly about eating animals. Those ingrained beliefs are not going to change overnight, certainly not by getting upfront and accusing. I know a lot of people who take serious offense at by christian beliefs, but oh well, I am not changing them. that is their problem.
I've been reading these responses and trying to think of what I want to say. I especially liked what Yabbit (as always) and Moonkeymama had to say. I was a very solid Southern Baptist for the first 22 years of my life. I've always been an all or nothing kinda girl, so when I was a christian, I was the best christian I could be. That being said, I always questioned the tendancy that some christians have to be judgmental and the lack of compassion that many people who ascribe to christianity seem to have. Obviously, I realize now that no one is perfect and in every "group" of people, there are some that reflect badly on the rest.
Like others have said, the bible is not the problem. I don't even think christianity or religion is inherently the problem. The problem is with people who can't see past their own beliefs enough to have compassion and understanding for others. In explaining my choice to be vegan, I often use christianity as a comparison. So many people have a negative view of vegans, often because of negative, militant "paint throwing" extremists. I think it's the same with christians. Although I am no longer christian, I am close to many who are compassionate, benevolent people who honestly try to live as they think jesus would.
My point...I don't like to be generalized and lumped into a category with extremist vegans who focus on the "idea" whether than the "ideal." The same holds true for christians.
Oh, and I'm not trying to be too critical SQ, but I couldn't help noticing your frequent usage of the word "they" in your original post. This goes back to the whole "generalization" thing. Not all christians are part of "they." Does that make any sense?