yeah, it's pretty gross and disheartening.

On the one hand, animals are dying no matter what, and for the detritus not sold for human or pet consumption, we might stretch ourselves to consider this as some kind of responsible use/burial. On the other, whether we like it or not, farmers surely have to pay for these supplies, and so by supporting the farmers, we support the practice, AND we eat stuff grown on blood.

Quite the conundrum.

I'd be curious to hear what you find out, VegDave. I know that there are other kinds of meal that are used -- soy meal, alfalfa meal, etc. And while I suppose it would be a shame to just throw stuff away that could otherwise be helpful, the basic tenets of that argument are the same as the one so often applied to meat already on shelves -- "if I don't eat it, they'll just throw it away!"

I suppose I ought to query farmers about it, too.

Unfortunately there seems to be a different definition of "organic" when it comes to things like fertilizer or anything not intended for direct human consumption... "U.S. Department of Agriculture regulations restricting 'downers,' cows that can't stand or walk, from being slaughtered for human consumption don't apply to bone meal production." (http://www.organicconsumers.org/madcow/fertilizer1804.cfm)

So even with the highest of hopes and least cynical imaginings, it's hard to say where this blood comes from. Yet even if it were fully, proudly, 100% guaranteed to come from certified 'organic, free-range,' 'happy cows,' and so forth... eh... http://www.goveg.com/organic.asp

I don't seem to be having much luck with starting polls here, though I think I may try one more just to see if people, given this information, still consider veggies 'vegan' if intentional blood and bone are part of the recipe...

Another question I have now is, if blood and bone were no longer available, how might the world's crops suffer? Exactly how dependent on blood & bone is the agricultural world as we know it, and if factory farming and general food/animal rights standards were to improve so significantly as to have an impact on the production of these fertilizer byproducts, would there still be enough to go around?

Something tells me maybe it's time I go to back to school for that investigative reporting degree I've been thinking about...  ???

Wow -- Thanks, guys! The encouragement is awesome! I will be posting elsewhere, for sure...

For the record, I'm not a specialist or anything, just a guy with a strong curiosity and some journalistic research skills. I haven't been vegan for very long, although I soaked up a lot of info before finally committing to the change (it took a lot to switch me over; I was a bit of a foody, and still am, but now in a much better way!). Firefightress, you're probably right that people don't chime in only because they feel they don't know enough, and that's cool; reading and learning is what it's all about. Everything I say comes from elsewhere on the web, or books, or even just stuff I picked up along the way, sometimes from forums like these (which I would then try to find corroborating info for, on the web or elsewhere, 'cuz we all talk out of our asses a little every now and then. It's part of the human condition, I think.  :)).

Also, I recognize that this is a "Recipe Q&A," and folks come here for cooking tips, not politics, or unpleasantness, as it were. Still, I find the community here so interactive and into communicating, I love gathering opinions from y'all, and have learned some stuff and started seeing things in new ways while I'm at it. Plus, whatever general impressions I can get from this and other vegan communities online will in time inform the articles and research I do for publication in the future -- the polls especially, if enough people respond...

But anyway... That said...

Downers are indeed the sick, crippled cows, so pumped full of hormones and toxic feeds that their infected legs can't support their freakish, enormous weight. Lots of cows can't even carry themselves to the slaughter; they collapse from disease, dehydration and deformity before they even get there, and those cows are then literally dragged off to be pulverised into pet food, food for other cows that will become food for humans, and -- as we now know -- blood and bone meal, which becomes fertilizer for organic crops, which even the most careful and considerate veg*n humans eat and spend money to support.

The Organic Consumers Association (which I tend to trust) assures us that "Chances of getting mad cow disease from garden fertilizer are slim," though does little to assuage the concerns over industrial-grade fertilizers spread over tens of thousands of acres. Ugh-- so much blood!  :-X It's gross just thinking about it. I really wish there was some kind of comprehensive report on the subject that would speak to all these concerns. 

LucidAnne:  Strangely, I do still have my old leather shoes and jacket in the closet; I just don't know what to do with them, though I'm sure I'll donate them eventually. I haven't worn leather in years, way before I actually went dietarily vegan. When I eat out, I'm resigned to sharing grill space and kitchen utensils, although I don't eat out very often, and when I do, it's usually at veg places. The issue of shoes is a good one to raise, though, as I was just faced with this recently:

my friend got married, and it's so rare that I get dressed up, I only had leather dress shoes that didn't even fit very well. On such short notice and limited budget, it came down to either the old leather shoes I got from Nordstrom Rack and were probably made in a sweatshop somewhere, or cheap, new, totally artificial shoes that may be animal-free but definitely sweatshop-made. I went with the new ones. It pained me to send my money to sweatshops, though at least they were animal-free, and I could dance without my feet hurting. It bothers me now even to admit that I bought something new, that I knew was made in a sweatshop. I'm starting to think maybe I made the wrong choice, and I should've just waited until I had the time and money to replace the old shoes conscientiously, 'cuz to tell you the truth, the welfare of humans is really my primary concern. Food system reform would help animals most immediately, as well as humanity in the end, and there are deeper philosophical issues at hand, but uh... This post is way too long as it is. 

thanks, guys. I guess I am my own worst critic.  :)

Good point, Lucidanne, about making choices as opposed to having them made for us. That's actually where my guilt stems from, with the shoes. A while back I decided not to wear leather, and bought a pair of vegan, union-made shoes that look a lot like doc martins. This time, rather than choosing to hold out for similarly faultless shoes, I went on down to Payless and donated $20 to a Chinese sweatshop for some ugly, far-from-fancy but easy-to-dance-in shoes. (I'm not exactly losing sleep over this; just putting it out there for discussion...) With the blood-meal fertilizer issue, in the grand scheme of things, given the resources, waste materials and disposal methods available to us today, the benefits of supporting organic growers that "recycle" what would otherwise quite literally go down the drain clearly outweighs my own personal reluctance to eat bloody veggies. And yet...

There remains this itch in my mind that thinks that by supporting the blood-using farmers, we provide yet another way for cow-killers to make money off of even their lamest, most otherwise "useless" animals. Granted, the bloodmeal probably won't make nearly as much money as beef, but the lesson Big Slaughter still learns is that even the most horribly mistreated animal can be made into a "cash cow." If there was no market for blood or bones, cattle-factories might have slightly more reason to preserve at least the lowest level of the health of cows so that they remain eligible for processing as beef; one more reason to give the tiniest bit of a d**n about the treatment of these animals. A babystep, however miniscule, towards reform.   

Man. Ignorance definitely is bliss, and I definitely sometimes wish I wasn't as curious as I am! Sometimes even just asking the question, without even knowing the answer, becomes reason enough to avoid a thing. I've actually grown increasingly suspicious of Trader Joes brand stuff for this reason... $.89 for a big bag of whole wheat pita? How can that be? As they say, it's not that the conscientious goods are expensive, it's that the conventional stuff is unrealistically cheap... 

Regarding leather in general:
Once I got it in my head that wearing leather is like wearing beef, I just couldn't do it anymore, personally. At the same time, much akin to why I would never wear anything baring the logo of a company I despised, I wouldn't want to advertise leather or make it look good or cool by wearing it around, because I am, after all, the hippest, trendiest cool-making fashion influencer in San Francisco  8)  ;)  as I'm sure everyone on Vegweb is in their own towns... So I made the switch right away. With the abundance of thrift shops here in SF, it was easy and cheap to replace a coat and belt; the mock-docs I admittedly sprang for, but it's been nearly 3 years and they're holdin' strong. Although I can see how for a wom--  er, that is, for anyone with lots of shoes and an extensive wardrobe, it might not be so easy.  :)

Veronica --
Thanks for your support, too... I have a question... I'm a young guy, far from having kids, so I certainly can't say what I would do or even think should be done in a parenting position, which is a tough one... But out of curiosity, have you ever tried working some substitutes into your teen's meals? Vegan cheese on cold sandwiches where it's not as noticable, maybe; seitan stir-fries, tofu scrambles, that sort of thing?

good point, loorin -- the leather stuff is built to last, it's true. All the more reason not to throw them away, but pass them along if you're not into the dead cow... Holes in canvas & rubber can be fixed, but more saliently: donate the old stuff! If we can afford anything new or nonessential at all (internet access, for example), we can afford to make that choice, whereas others really have no choice at all, and it sure beats the landfill option.

In terms of "wearing but not supporting the slaughter," I'd have to say I tend to disagree -- granted it doesn't matter what other people think, but that said, if one person looks good in leather (a person of means, that is, which is a whole 'nother assumption people tend to make without thinking, but speaking here only of people with the actual ability to make choices walking among others who can also afford choices), everyone will want it; it's like advertising. I don't judge people for wearing it, although I do tend to assume that they're not vegan (if I'm sure that it's leather; there are some convincing fakes out there, like my shoes, so where does that leave me in this equation?), and hey -- I do love vegans! So it's not a negative per se, but the absence of a positive. At any rate, I tend to feel that, given the availability of other options, wearing = supporting, but to each her own.

I have a good friend that's actually way more into animal rights than I am, and she has an antique (or 'vintage', I guess) coat that she found at a garage sale, with a real fur collar. Real fur;the classic fashion evil. I was a little shocked to find out it was real. She wears it because it's cute; her money went to some little old lady and not to the poacher; it's an antique, no new animal died for it... She justified it every which way. All I saw was a dead animal, and someone making it look good. Whadayagonnado? She's still my friend, and she still loves animals... currently living ones, anyway...