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Im vegan but I can't stand...

Stereotypical hippies.

There are a bunch of damn hippies at my school that go around slapping peace sign stickers on stuff whenever they get the chance. Then the go and drive to Hartford (CT) and buy "the good stuff" from drug dealers, which helps "promote peace and expand minds." Then they smoke that shit and go and eat a bunch of McDonald's "food." I know 2 girls off the top of my head that party often, and have had abortions. I don't know what is more sickening, their actions, or the fact that they are so open and laid back about it.

The way I see it, buying drugs from drug dealers supports gang violence. Smoking shit makes you weak and apathetic, and hardly "expands minds." Eating McDonald's... speaks for itself on this website. And abortion as a form of birth control is just fucking appalling.

All this stuff adds up to what I could hardly call a peaceful life. Granted there are chill hippies out there but most of them just piss me off.

Any of you guys feel the same way? Oh and by the way, did I mention that they smell bad and have scummy hair...

My example was unnecessary refined sugar, though.

eta:  lol.  I heart my Sierra Nevada porter.  I may only drink it occasionally, but I'm happy it's around because it tastes good.  Much better than doughnuts or whatever.

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Yeah hh I totally agree that the American diet and the resulting health problems  are WAYYYY huger problems that we choose to sweep under the rug as a country.  I agree with you there. 

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What other choices are you willing to give up to stop other people from making the poor choice?  Would you voluntarily start down the slippery slope of surrendering your rights just to stop people from making bad decisions?

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Is that for me, cali?  I think the thread is wrapping itself down, so I was just being silly with suggestions.

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I guess where I have trouble with this issue is that it's one of those line-drawing kind of things.  There are lots of illegal recreational drugs that a person can use and not have them devastate their lives or form a habit.  Marijuana is one of them.  But currently it appears the line is in between the alcohol/cigarettes and the marijuana.   I don't know, maybe that's the wrong spot for it.  But if we move it, then who's to say, "Oh, now you're taking away my right to do ecstasy/opium/drug-of-choice!"  It's a slippery slope in both directions.

What I envision is, suppose marijuana is made legal for recreational use.  Presumably there would be an age limit like tobacco and alcohol have.  So then what, are kids going to start getting high on their 18th birthdays as well?  The binge drinking is bad enough.  We don't need (more) high high-schoolers/ college kids running around and become lazy stoners (based on my personal experience with pot-smokers).  I just can't justify adding marijuana to the mix.  We have to draw the line somewhere.  I don't really know what decides that.  Majority opinion?  Not sure.

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What other choices are you willing to give up to stop other people from making the poor choice?  Would you voluntarily start down the slippery slope of surrendering your rights just to stop people from making bad decisions?

...currently it appears the line is in between the alcohol/cigarettes and the marijuana.  I don't know, maybe that's the wrong spot for it.  But if we move it, then who's to say, "Oh, now you're taking away my right to do ecstasy/opium/drug-of-choice!"  It's a slippery slope in both directions.
...We have to draw the line somewhere.  I don't really know what decides that.  Majority opinion?  Not sure.

I can see where kmk's counter-argument is coming from, but it's cali's statement that forms the basis of my opinion on this issue.
The problem of where to draw this "line" and who makes that decision is that the majority of voters in the U.S. are grossly misinformed about the history of hemp, its many uses, marijuana prohibition, and the REAL potential dangers/benefits of marijuana use.

http://www.globalhemp.com/Archives/History/hemp_history.html

....

And faylinameir, I'm from Iowa. I remember when the public smoking ban went into effect.... And honestly, I think that's as far as it's going to go. Banning smoking in public places makes sense, but making it illegal altogether is highly unlikely.

aaaand like hespedal, I'm going to dip out of this discussion now, before my frustration gets the better of me.
Some people will just never get it.

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Just on the THC/smoking marijuana - what about non-inhalation methods that already exist? A Mary-Jane cookie avoids the problems of smoke inhalation, as would imbibing an oil-infusion.

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Yeah I'm pretty sure eating it is the safest way.  But if all you really need are the THC benefits, you should be going to a doctor to get your medical condition diagnosed, and then you should get a prescription for THC, in theory.  This seems very simple to me.  We don't give people free reign to put, say, oxycontin in their brownies.

I read your article, narcissus, but I'm not really interested whether or not hemp was a lucrative crop in colonial days.  I understand that it's prohibition may have been misinformed at the time, but I don't think that automatically means it never should have been criminalized.  I just think it should be criminalized for different reasons than they thought back then.

I still am not really receptive to the whole "you're taking away my personal rights" argument.  The government takes away your personal right when it mandates you to wear a seatbelt, wear a helmet, drive the speed limit, get a prescription for many drugs, etc.  I'd surrender my right to alcohol if I thought banning it would be of benefit to society.  I don't think we can reasonably make that case based on history.

If you could provide me with a good, reliable source of info about the benefits and risks of marijuana that is not from a marijuana/hemp website or anecdotal accounts, I would be more receptive.  I already know that it's supposed to be good for glaucoma, chemo patients, people with chronic pain, etc.  I don't know what it's supposed to do for the rest of the well population.  You're saying that some people will never get it, but you're not giving us any information to go by, which brings your reasoning into question.  If I don't get it then explain it to me please.

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Just on the THC/smoking marijuana - what about non-inhalation methods that already exist? A Mary-Jane cookie avoids the problems of smoke inhalation, as would imbibing an oil-infusion.

I've heard that THC is not very absorbable in the GI tract, but then I hear completely opposite things from people who eat pot brownies. : /

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Narcissus has a good point.
eating THC-laden foodstuffs--and also using vaporizers--are much safer alternatives.

...
I read your article, narcissus carrot_wench, but I'm not really interested whether or not hemp was a lucrative crop in colonial days.  I understand that it's prohibition may have been misinformed at the time, but I don't think that automatically means it never should have been criminalized.  I just think it should be criminalized for different reasons than they thought back then.

...
Also, since someone raised the issue--the main reason tobacco is legal and pot is not is historical circumstance.  This country was founded on tobacco.  The history of the two are different, just like the history and significance of alcohol is different still.  At this point it's probably unreasonable to expect to criminalize tobacco or alcohol. ...

You mentioned historical circumstance earlier, which is why I felt the need to point out that this country was just as much founded on hemp as it was tobacco.

I still am not really receptive to the whole "you're taking away my personal rights" argument.  The government takes away your personal right when it mandates you to wear a seatbelt, wear a helmet, drive the speed limit, get a prescription for many drugs, etc.  I'd surrender my right to alcohol if I thought banning it would be of benefit to society.  I don't think we can reasonably make that case based on history.

If you could provide me with a good, reliable source of info about the benefits and risks of marijuana that is not from a marijuana/hemp website or anecdotal accounts, I would be more receptive.  I already know that it's supposed to be good for glaucoma, chemo patients, people with chronic pain, etc.  I don't know what it's supposed to do for the rest of the well population.  You're saying that some people will never get it, but you're not giving us any information to go by, which brings your reasoning into question.  If I don't get it then explain it to me please.

Look at it this way:
alcohol is fun to drink, but drinking has its risks.
marijuana is fun to smoke, and its risks are fewer*...  but even if the risks were the same as alcohol, I still don't see why it ought to be illegal just because some people lack personal responsibility.

You like to drink wine sometimes, right? That very substance--alcohol--is abused heavily in this country, and its abuse is the cause of several deaths and ongoing health problems.... so why not make it illegal for everyone?
Yes, some people who smoke weed are irresponsible with it, but that is not the case with everyone who uses it, just as it is not the case with everyone who drinks.

This thread has become just another drug debate to which there will be no resolution.
Not a single word I say will make a goddamn bit of difference to those who refuse to see things any other way than their own, which is why I'm dipping out now.

* With sources from the CDC, The American Scientist, and other scientific journals

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Just on the THC/smoking marijuana - what about non-inhalation methods that already exist? A Mary-Jane cookie avoids the problems of smoke inhalation, as would imbibing an oil-infusion.

I've heard that THC is not very absorbable in the GI tract, but then I hear completely opposite things from people who eat pot brownies. : /

Well, from my previous life, I know that it's absorbable enough to make a person CRAZY sick. I'm thankful for that, though, because it's what made me stop!

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OK, what you keep telling me is, "Alcohol is just as bad if not worse than marijuana, so marijuana should be legal too."  That's just backwards.  I already said that I would be willing to give up the occasional glass of wine and cocktail if I thought criminalizing alcohol would be of benefit to society.  I don't feel confident making that case.  I don't think it's even feasible to pass such legislation, and I don't think the benefits would outweigh the costs.  In reality we probably shouldn't be using either.  The part that bothers me most about the website you linked to was that it makes alcohol and marijuana an "either/or" deal.  Why does it have to be either/or?  Neither should be a necessary fixture in your life.

Don't act like the people on the opposite side of the debate from you are the rigid ones.  Posting and then leaving without carrying through with the dialog is equally if not more stubborn.

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Is that for me, cali?  I think the thread is wrapping itself down, so I was just being silly with suggestions.

Nope, my comment was directed at anyone who wishes for anything, other than direct acts of harm to other people, to be made illegal.  Any time you limit anyone's right to do anything (except do direct harm to others) you are limiting your own rights now and possibly even more so in the future.

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Nope, my comment was directed at anyone who wishes for anything, other than direct acts of harm to other people, to be made illegal.  Any time you limit anyone's right to do anything (except do direct harm to others) you are limiting your own rights now and possibly even more so in the future.

i agree 100% with you

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Nope, my comment was directed at anyone who wishes for anything, other than direct acts of harm to other people, to be made illegal.  Any time you limit anyone's right to do anything (except do direct harm to others) you are limiting your own rights now and possibly even more so in the future.

i agree 100% with you

Precisely. But then again, it would seem that enough people have shown a propensity to use those rights irresponsibly that the majority has decided it's better to relinquish those rights than to let others abuse them and cause harm to themselves and to others. I can't say I always agree... but I'm not the majority.

I actually am not particularly bothered about legalization, beyond thinking that hey, might make some people's lives easier, might generate some tax dollars, might set some quality standards. But my reasoning is that a ban is more like a filter - if you're private and discreet enough not to get busted, you probably aren't acting out/abusing to such a huge extent that you're grievously endangering others. I actually have no particular data to back that up, though... But from personal experience, the quiet and responsible users of any drug, legal or no, tend to fly under the radar. The obnoxious users of legal drugs frequently get off scot-free. The obnoxious users of illicit drugs get done.

I'll agree with HH; it isn't the drug, it's the person using. I think it would be better overall to not have prohibitions on the substances themselves but rather stricter laws (and better enforcement) regarding drug-induced antisocial behaviour.

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Sweet!  Because I'm posting to agree with you, Narcissus.  I have been around a lot of pot smokers (having lived in Humboldt County, and more specifically, Arcata <-- likely the pot smoking capital of the nation).  There are a few people who fit the stereotype presented in this thread.  The majority are people who have good jobs and/or are good students, are good family members, and good neighbors.  You wouldn't know they smoke pot unless you were a close friend.  You all probably know someone like this, but didn't mention them because you don't even know they use marijuana.

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this thread is now making me want to reconsider the worth my life and go smoke a blunt. I hope you guys are happy now!!!

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Jake, I think you might be taking my comments/related ones slightly beyond their intent. Your choices are your choices, and I respect that. I don't mean to seem like I'm pressuring you to take up using drugs. I just think it's fair to let those who make different choices and do so responsibly have respect as well. You can be edge if you want, but bashing EVERYONE who uses drugs, or the drugs themselves, or entire subcultures and social groups... that's a little harsh.

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OK, what you keep telling me is, "Alcohol is just as bad if not worse than marijuana, so marijuana should be legal too."  That's just backwards.  I already said that I would be willing to give up the occasional glass of wine and cocktail if I thought criminalizing alcohol would be of benefit to society.  I don't feel confident making that case.  I don't think it's even feasible to pass such legislation, and I don't think the benefits would outweigh the costs.  In reality we probably shouldn't be using either.  The part that bothers me most about the website you linked to was that it makes alcohol and marijuana an "either/or" deal.  Why does it have to be either/or?  Neither should be a necessary fixture in your life.

Don't act like the people on the opposite side of the debate from you are the rigid ones.  Posting and then leaving without carrying through with the dialog is equally if not more stubborn.

No. YOU are the one making it an "either/or deal" for the sake of Your own argument; I simply introduced alcohol as a counter-example.

It is not stubbornness that keeps me from carrying on with this; it is the fact that You don't care to debate the issue, only me. Others have posted the same opinion--that some people's bad decisions should not be considered a defining and criminalizing characteristic of a substance in general--but You don't care to debate those people.
Why the hell would I want to stay here and talk to a brick wall? So I can avoid further criticism from one prominent Vegwebber?
seriously, fuck this noise.

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this thread is now making me want to reconsider the worth my life and go smoke a blunt. I hope you guys are happy now!!!

;D

If it helps (and it probably won't), I don't use drugs.  Heck, I might get buzzed occassionally, but I don't get drunk, either.  I'm too Type A; I don't like losing control. 

My position is from someone who doesn't have much of a stake in the outcome.  People abuse both legal and illegal drugs.  It's not the substance, it's the abuser.  Whether or not it's legal, people are going to do what they do.  Regulating everything that a person may abuse is kind of a crazy prospect.  It'd be like engineering the maximum speed on automobiles to be 65 mph.  People who don't want pot legalized cite one set of examples and the people who want pot legalized (or at least aren't against it) cite another set of examples, me included.  The balance is somewhere between the two, but I'd place it closer to the legalization side.

Tip:  Don't smoke a blunt, use a bong.  And don't wash your hair and smoke for a few days in a row so your clothes are good and saturated with the smell.  Then go find those hippies.  Otherwise they might think you're a narc if your eyes aren't nice 'n red.  And smoke the green, not the brown.  If they smell the green on you, they'll know you're a man of quality.

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