"vegan education" and other people's kids
I would seriously like some opinions from those who are vegan but not directly involved in this situation. As background, I am not vegan but respect those who have made that choice for themselves. (I am here to learn to cook some things I otherwise would not eat) As a parent, I would expect vegan parents to teach their kids why they are vegan in an age appropriate way.
The only "real life" vegan I know is an actress in local community theater. DH was in a play involving several kids in the cast. I was the costumer/stage manager so I spent a lot of time with the cast back stage. I did not see this happen but heard about it from several sources. The vegan cast member was telling the kids in the cast that milking a cow is sexual harassment. Now, I can see where she could honestly have that position but I believe it was not her place to bring this up in front of a 6 yr old girl. I do not think 6 yr olds should have a concept of what sexual harassment is and if they do, it should come from their own parents, not someone else. Now a discussion on milking cows equals sexual harassment with high school students I would not have an issue with.
So, what are your "rules" for recruiting new vegans?
are there that many vegans in portland?! if so, i might want to venture... so cal is veg friendly but still...
portland is the vegan capital of the country. There are tons and tons and tons of vegans there.
i swear i feel like it's calling my name... i wanna get outta the bubble but idk... scared
Amy, come on up here, where it is ALWAYS GREEN!!! 8-)
I used to work for a woman's shelter program thing, and I was with the kids (while the moms went to court/meetings/therapy/whatnot). Usually any kid over 5 would ask why I wasn't also eating the , and I'd just say that I don't want to eat animals. That always seemed to be enough of an explanation for younger kids, and for older ones who wanted to know more, I'd say that I didn't want to hurt animals, so I didn't eat them or things that come from them.
In a way I don't want to act like a person should have to be protected from where food comes from or the idea that some would abstain from animal foods, but I don't want to feel like I'm imposing values on a kid (especially in that situation, because a lot of stuff I did there was all about helping the kids learning respect, communication, etc and so to them another ethical stance could be seen as what they "should" do as well. I guess that type of thing would go for a teacher as well). But ultimately if a parent got upset, it'd only be because I revealed that (gasp) meat comes from animals. That's something that I really think kids should never be out of the loop on. There are kids (not toddlers or anything) who don't even know that, which seems weird to me.
The thing about the way she said it was that there wasn't any information in it. I don't agree with hiding things from children so if you're going to explain why you don't drink milk, it should be done in an informative way, not a "I'm going to shock you" sort of way. If a kid asked me why I'm not eating meat, I'm not going to say,"Because meat is torture and slaughter!" I would actually take the time to explain a bit about why.
"Because meat is torture and slaughter!" I would actually take the time to explain a bit about why.
I have a big problem with that statement too, even used in the vegan community. I agree with it, but at the same time I recognized that many non-vegs who hear that will shut down. They think "great, crazy PETA people" and they stop listening. I dislike protests that become more about anger and blame than about education. A lot of people I have met will get involved in a conversation about veganism, and will consider making a change, even if it's just 3 veg meals a week.
I haven't met anyone who was happy to stick around and be called a murderer, or went vegan afterwards.
on the other hand, more than one person has asked me (without my provoking) if I think "meat is murder." I explain why I do think it's wrongful killing. One of them did go vegan, eventually.
It's kind of sad that being open and honest about our ethical views may actually be the worse tactic. I know one of the criticisms people have of PETA or animal activists in general are the occasional campaigns or statements comparing X use of animals with X oppression of humans. It bothers people, but the comparison is exactly the point. Suffering is suffering, exploitation is always wrong, and we shouldn't care less about the torment of animals just because they're "others". Such a depiction is seen as demeaning to the human victims, but what activists mean to illustrate is the opposite. Not the lowering (again) of the human victims to the status of "animals," but the elevation of animals' moral status to that of humans, at least in the sense of providing basic needs and a right to life.
But you can't put that on a button. "Meat is murder" is catchier.
I agree with you FB on how being honest can be more damaging - especially when it comes to kids. Kids don't generally have the option to choose to eat or not animal products, as their parents are going to make them eat it regardless of what the child wants. Once you draw the equality and suffering line with children, how many of them will choose to eat animal products? Now you have an individual who feels guilty for eating, but can't help it because they don't have any control over the situation.
Conversely, I think most adults are going to cling to eating animal products when faced with reasons to be veg. In my experience it ends up this way, and usually the reason I hear for it is some variation of the "everyone else eats it" or "I am too old to change" themes. I think in the end though, many people are uncomfortable with trying to reconcile their past of eating animal products and will fiercely cling to their ways in self protection.
I am not sure there really is any way to effectively educate people about the issue other than by simple demonstration. The PETA approach of getting in peoples faces seems to just anger more people than actually get anyone to join our ranks...
are there that many vegans in Portland?! if so, i might want to venture... so cal is veg friendly but still...
Yes. And yes.
That is why you should move here.
Sometimes I wonder about that though. PETA is quite polarizing, in that many will attribute any perceived shortcoming of the AR movement to them (whether it's sensationalism, being a hypocrite, the ALF, etc). On the other hand, the peta2 thing they did for high school students & college students became pretty successful, they do still get support & new supporters, and plus... PETA is how I came to veganism ;)b
the in-your-face type of tactic probably only works on people who are open to the idea of changing what they do to begin with, though.
I went vegetarian in 6th grade after PETA came to our school and did a lecture. I don't think our junior high had any idea what PETA was, cuz they were never invited back. But it changed me for the better.
are there that many vegans in Portland?! if so, i might want to venture... so cal is veg friendly but still...
Yes. And yes.
That is why you should move here.
damn it! i kinda wanna... seriously... i'm gonna start looking for new accounting jobs soon, i suppose i will just scope out jobs there as well... is it easy to meet like minded people? idk, lived here my whole life it would be so strange just being there by myself but hmmmmmm
are there that many vegans in Portland?! if so, i might want to venture... so cal is veg friendly but still...
Yes. And yes.
That is why you should move here.
damn it! i kinda wanna... seriously... i'm gonna start looking for new accounting jobs soon, i suppose i will just scope out jobs there as well... is it easy to meet like minded people? idk, lived here my whole life it would be so strange just being there by myself but hmmmmmm
Amy, you move here and I will take you out to eat somewhere. Perhaps portland's Sat. Market. Lots of craft stuff on display and a great food area with several vegan choices or it is just a quick jump on the light rail to get to the area of Portland State and there are several restaurants just off campus. I live in the western burbs. DH and I go to a local Indian restaurant and their lunch buffet is huge with about equal parts meat, vegetarian and vegan so there are lots of options.
One thing I apprecate here. I was out to eat at a Mexican chain with the family. DD and I both ordered a mushroom and asparagus burrito. When we ordered our beans, I was informed nicely that my choice contained lard and which beans options were vegetarian so I could change it. To a large degree, people here are informed and good about it.
I think my serious consideration of changing diet came from conversations with the last physical therapist I worked with. During one of our torture sessions, the topic of diet came up. He was vegan for health reasons and although I could say at the time I respected that, I had no concept how to cook anything vegi based that was a complete meal that my family would not reject, vegetarian daughter included, except mac and cheese. He gave me some info to research farther from a health perspective (hence, my switch to free range chickens and grass fed beef for the family) and some tips for cooking things that his kids' omni friends would eat when they came over. I am finding now that when I do occasionally eat a few bites of factory farmed meat, my stomach does not like it anymore. I am noticing signs of minor protein deficiency so I am working on correcting that. Over all though, I am not regretting the steps I am taking. I only cook meat 2X/week now for the guys and it is debatable if I am eating it.
Looking back, I have mostly chosen veg options if it was quality food. If not quality, then I chose the "better" option.
"Meat is murder" is catchier.
And a good song.
are there that many vegans in Portland?! if so, i might want to venture... so cal is veg friendly but still...
Yes. And yes.
That is why you should move here.
damn it! i kinda wanna... seriously... i'm gonna start looking for new accounting jobs soon, i suppose i will just scope out jobs there as well... is it easy to meet like minded people? idk, lived here my whole life it would be so strange just being there by myself but hmmmmmm
Amy, you move here and I will take you out to eat somewhere. Perhaps portland's Sat. Market. Lots of craft stuff on display and a great food area with several vegan choices or it is just a quick jump on the light rail to get to the area of Portland State and there are several restaurants just off campus. I live in the western burbs. DH and I go to a local Indian restaurant and their lunch buffet is huge with about equal parts meat, vegetarian and vegan so there are lots of options.
One thing I apprecate here. I was out to eat at a Mexican chain with the family. DD and I both ordered a mushroom and asparagus burrito. When we ordered our beans, I was informed nicely that my choice contained lard and which beans options were vegetarian so I could change it. To a large degree, people here are informed and good about it.
i will take you up on that offer if it happens! i will give it a shot, just applying up there and if i get an offer, i just might go!
The vegan cast member was telling the kids in the cast that milking a cow is sexual harassment.
That's insane. Animals are property, and the concept of "harassment" doesn't apply.
(And the cliche of "sexual harassment" alarmism is way overblown when applied to humans as well.)
So, what are your "rules" for recruiting new vegans?
Respect other people's Rights, including Parents' Rights. Use persuasion, not government force, to get your points across. And never entangle veganism with crazy left-wing politics, which turns people off, as it very well should. Focus on medical facts, not on your misplaced emotions for animals or Al Gore's political fantasies for a world government.
Animals are property.
Now that's insane :)
Animals are property.
Now that's insane :)
In our culture, that is legally correct whether we agree with it or not.
Animals being property is not "insane", it is based on pure reason - the foundation of all Rights. As I've explained countless times, arguments to the contrary are driven by emotion and nothing else. You cannot have a legal system that is based on irrational emotions. If somebody gets really emotional about "plant rights" or "teddy bear rights" or his "right" to rape you, does that make it valid?
And animals are not really property at present - it's become a matter of degrees. Government places way too many restrictions on how they can be used - to great human detriment, especially in potential of medical experiments.
You should propagate your opinions about animal treatment ethics through speech, consumer activism, boycotts, and ostracism - not by encouraging government force.
Animals are property.
Now that's insane :)
In our culture, that is legally correct whether we agree with it or not.
Yet, even if something is "legally correct", it might still be insane. Please recall that humans too have legally been mere property in the US; does that not count as insane?
I don't suppose it was your intention to compare people of African descent to non-human animals. >:(
I've already addressed the rational basis of Natural Rights, and why non-human animals don't quality, on a separate thread.
I don't suppose it was your intention to compare people of African descent to non-human animals. >:(
The fact that the law was specific to people of African descent was irrelevant to my point, which is why in my original post I said "humans", without specifying which humans. Any law which treats any humans as property is certainly an example of something which is "legally correct" yet insane. That is clear to everyone, right?
Admittedly, such an example doesn't really prove anything directly about non-human animals. I was specifically responding to semiveg's comment, and haven't read Alex Libman's thread.
Pages