Insects are animals?
Posted by positively charged on Mar 14, 2010 · Member since Mar 2010 · 8 posts
I was under the impression that going vegan meant getting the animal products out of my diet. Where does honey and silk (not the soy milk, actual silk) come in to play?
All I saw was stuff posted by vegans with an agenda. Anything by someone with a phd? Or a non-biased party? A link for a forum on vegweb, and then a link for a vegan trying to sell a book. Funny. I'd like to see a real scientific study.
From the newer edition of this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Small-Animal-Clinical-Nutrition-Michael/dp/0945837054/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1271896307&sr=8-1
"Small Animal Clinical Nutrition"
"Much can be learned about an animal's nutritional requirements simply by analyzing its natural food source. True carnivores, such as cats, are limited to what is available from prey tissue such as skeletal muscle and liver to provide energy and nutrients, including protein, taurine, arginine, arachidonic acid, and niacin. Consequently, carnivorous animals (e.g. cats) developed more efficient pathways to use these nutrients, and have lost the ability or have a decreased ability to synthesize them from precursors. being omnivorou and feeding on a varied diet of plant and animal tissue, dogs maintained or improved the ability to synthesize nutrients from precursors. These differences lend more evidence to early evolutionary divergence and further support the premise that dogs are omnivores.
"Table 12-5 compares the recommendations for daily nutrient intake of adult dogs to the nutrient content of meat (ground beef). This comparison confirms that an all-meat food would be unbalanced for dogs."
"The characteristics of the canine small intestine are consistent with those of animals that digest an omnivorous diet. The small intestine composes approximately 23% of the total GI volume of dogs vs 15% for cats. The ratio of GI tract length to total body length is 6:1 for dogs, 4:1 for cats, 10:1 for rabbits, and as high as 20:1 for some herbivores. This anatomic relationship is consistent with ingestion of an omnivorous diet with intermediate digestibility (i.e., between low digestible herbaceous forages and highly digestible animal flesh). Dogs digest starch effectively via pancreatic enzymes and mucosal disaccharides."
There is no specific of vegetarian/vegan diets for dogs, however. But there is some for cats:
"Although the nutritional needs of cats are best met by a carnivorous diet, vegetarian diets can be designed to provide adequate nutrition. Vegetarian formulas are commercially available and several commercial supplements are available to provide nutrients normally missing, inadequate or poorly available in plant-based diets. The commonly reported pitfalls of commercially available feline vegan diets include taurine, arachidonic acid and vitamin A deficiencies. Several nutrients (below) require special attention in vegetarian formulations." (the nutrients are protein, taurine, B12, vitamin A , iron/zinc/copper if the food is high in phytates, and arachidonic acid). Cats have a higher total protein requirement than dogs (if I remember correctly, about 22-23% vs ~18% for dogs), and most foods for either animal far exceed this level. Excess protein is not beneficial, and it is suspected that it may contribute to chronic kidney disease (but this is debated).
Vegetarian/vegan diets are more of a concern for cats than dogs because of their meat-specific nutrient requirements.
They don't mention this in the book, but one of the risks for plant-based diets (at least for cats) is struvite urinary stones. Plant-based foods tend to be higher in magnesium and cause a higher urinary pH, which predisposes them to struvite stone formation. Some cats are more prone than others, though. I recall that the vegan-cat-food-people had to deal with this, and recommended getting a vegan cat's urinary pH tested periodically. (on the other hand, a low urinary pH can cause calcium oxalate stones, which is by a small margin the most common urinary stone in dogs & cats).
All I saw was stuff posted by vegans with an agenda. Anything by someone with a phd? Or a non-biased party? A link for a forum on vegweb, and then a link for a vegan trying to sell a book. Funny. I'd like to see a real scientific study.
I guess you'll have to do your own research to find sources then, because I'm happy with my choice. And so is my dog!
DITTO!
X3 :)
and i don't think anyone here would feed a python or whatever vegan food... some animals can do perfectly well on a vegan diet and dogs are one of them fortunately... nobody on here would ever dream of harming an animal by feeding it a vegan diet when that animal can't live a happy healthy life... dogs can be vegan/ vegetarian... also, i don't think they would be allowed to sell vegetarian/ vegan dog food in stores across the country if they it wasn't adequate for dogs
there are apparently a number of brands that are not adequate. There are some pretty loose pet food regulations. I mean, even for a certain certification ('adequate for all life stages'), the clinical trial is only a matter of weeks, so long-term effects are never studied.
there are apparently a number of brands that are not adequate. There are some pretty loose pet food regulations. I mean, even for a certain certification ('adequate for all life stages'), the clinical trial is only a matter of weeks, so long-term effects are never studied.
lame... my dogs are seriously thriving on the vegan diet so i don't think anything is wrong with it... if i thought it was bad for them i would never dream of doing it
I think the fact that this argument started out by stating that dogs are carnivores sort of makes this a non-issue. We cannot defend our positions of feeding our dogs a vegan diet when we're arguing the basic fact of what their diets are originally intended to be. Herbivores, carnivores, and omnivores all have different physiological gastrointestinal differences, including different stomach sizes, different small and large intestine lengths, different stomach pHs....these are facts that are agreed upon and not disputed. Dogs are not carnivores, dogs do not need meat to survive. If we can all get on the same page for this, then perhaps there can be a meaningful discussion.
My dog is also happy, healthy, and vibrant as a vegan dog. I don't think it's even necessary to compare his food to the food that most people feed their dogs with animal by-products and chemical preservatives and corn fillers. Just because those foods have "meat" doesn't mean they're good for anybody.
My dog is also happy, healthy, and vibrant as a vegan dog. I don't think it's even necessary to compare his food to the food that most people feed their dogs with animal by-products and chemical preservatives and corn fillers. Just because those foods have "meat" doesn't mean they're good for anybody.
Well said. I have happy health vegan dogs.
My dog is also happy, healthy, and vibrant as a vegan dog. I don't think it's even necessary to compare his food to the food that most people feed their dogs with animal by-products and chemical preservatives and corn fillers. Just because those foods have "meat" doesn't mean they're good for anybody.
Well said. I have happy health vegan dogs.
I know you do. You were actually one of the large reasons I decided to go with a vegan diet for Oliver. I read your posts (stalked you a little...) and your dogs looked so happy and beautiful, and I saw you'd been doing it for quite a while. So, Oliver and I thank you! :)>>>
ooohhhh Tweety has Italian Greyhounds!!! Those are the coolest dogs ever!
i feel like this thread got a little ridiculous. i call myself vegan because i am. i don't make exceptions. theres always going to be those times when theres 'contamination', or some ingredient i wasnt told about, or yaddayadda... but exceptions dont jive with my conscience.
on the pet note..
i got a kitten before i went vegan. after doing my research, i keep her on a meat based diet as cats' and their digestive systems are just designed to be carnivorous. for me being vegan means caring about animals, not labelling myself, so i put her health before my ethical discomfort with purchasing her food. i love her more than anything, but i don't plan to get another animal that cannot be raised healthfully on a plant based diet.
does this make me only a level 1 vegan? >:D
does this make me only a level 1 vegan? >:D
yep... you can never be level a 5 after that off the wall comment... you're out of the club :P
no no, i disagree. she is a level 1.5 vegan. The extra 0.5 is for doing research.
no no, i disagree. she is a level 1.5 vegan. The extra 0.5 is for doing research.
crap you're right... my bad
phew...at least i get some kind of stamp of approval!
If you think the stamp is cool, you haven't seen the badge we give out.
If you think the stamp is cool, you haven't seen the badge we give out.
Yesss the badge... Only super vegans get that... I'm only a level 4 so I have never seen the badge... Crap FML
i think animal liberation by pete singer has a good portion spent on the capability of animals for suffering...personally i think that you gotta do what you gotta do, and should minimize suffering as you can. i think you should avoid killing insects but sometimes it is inevitable. (not a vegetarian at this point time either, but still under the idea that the less death the better)
I was under the impression that going vegan meant getting the animal products out of my diet. Where does honey and silk (not the soy milk, actual silk) come in to play?
Everyone who uses this site is more alike than different. Bickering over semantics is not what a veg-centric life is about...Yay for veg-heads of all types! Let's just celebrate and appreciate our common ground, and relax about the rest. Humans are perpetual works-in-progress... where someone is today isn't necessarily where they'll be in a year. We should support each other on the road, here, and not get lost in the details: the trees are ok, but the forest is great!
HotCook, I always love what you have to say. :)>>> Arguments like these keep me wanting to never distinguish myself as a "vegan," because sooner or later the police come out and major debates are started over the most minscule of things. Just being able to say vegetarian, not vegan, allows me to spend more time celebrating the good than fretting over the bad. I feel a lot more at liberty to make decisions as they are called for, not adhering to a regime. In fact, I've almost come to completely resent the term "vegan." No matter how veg you are, can't we just celebrate our mutual successes and be happy?
I've almost come to completely resent the term "vegan."
This site is for everyone, we have omnis who are regulars, but if you actually resent "vegan", you may have a better time on a vegetarian / non-vegan board like Veggie Boards.
I've almost come to completely resent the term "vegan."
This site is for everyone, we have omnis who are regulars, but if you actually resent "vegan", you may have a better time on a vegetarian / non-vegan board like Veggie Boards.
I actually hate the VeggieBoards. I posted there for awhile and eventually couldn't stand it. But I think you misinterpreted my comment. Completely and totally. I didn't say I resented veganism or vegans. I was a vegan before moving into a homeless shelter. What I said, quite clearly, is that I am beginning to resent the term for how it seems to incite everyone to bickering. In fact, you seem so sensitive about it that you just immediately jumped down my throat for even suggesting that I might like to avoid using the term "vegan" or applying it to myself to avoid confrontation. Over-sensitivity on the issue of Vegan seems pretty rampent. You call yourself a vegetarian, and generally people are good about not suddenly inquiring what you feed your dog or what kind of toothpaste you use. But vegan? Now everyone starts jumping up and down. The police are out- Oh my gods! That is soo not vegan! It gets tiresome. No, I don't understand why people are so oversensitive or why people feel a need to fight over such pettiness. Sorry.
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