Pro-choice and veg*n?
Hello VegWeb, it's been a while. I was reminded to log in the other day when I got into a debate with a friend about abortion. She challenged that as a veg*n I should also be pro-life by default, which led me into a pretty interesting examination of why I agree with these two philosophies.
I personally maintain that legalising abortion allows women to make important decisions regarding their bodies and futures, and brings the numbers of those seeking dangerous backstreet abortions down. In those countries which legalise abortion, such as my native England, I consider it a right of women in need, although never a method of birth control. Legal limits for abortion exist for a reason; if it isn't a viable foetus, I don't consider it murder.
As a veg*n, I neither support nor participate in the slaughter or torture of animals because I believe that compassion and right should not be extended only to those who have the ability to ask for them. I couldn't kill an animal (except in absolute, last-chance-to-survive emergency), and if I eat meat that's being done on my behalf.
Looking at the reasoning behind my support for legal abortion and veg*nism, I don't feel hypocritical for my decisions.
What about you, dear VegWebbers? Are you inherently conflicted? Which way does your allegiance lie on this tricky moral question?
Did I make any insults that I didn't back with facts?
Wikipedia and your own trolling posts from other forums aren't "facts".
Okay, I was trying really hard to stay out of this but when I read this I couldn't resist.
I am an avid hike, backpacker and photographer and I have to ask you one thing:
Could you really imagine living in a world with no beauty? No wilderness, no woods, no waterfalls or white snow capped mountains, no tropical blue ocean waters, no palm trees blowing in the wind, no parks to go for walks, no National parks?
Honestly. I know you say that it is pointless to have these thing but I don't think so. Humans NEED these things to be happy. We EVOLVED in the forests, there is a primal need in all of us for these things. They are more important than you realize.
I am not stating that the things you claim are facts actually are facts, but an insult based on facts is still an insult and turns of the listener. Sorry. If you want to argue issues, them go ahead, and we can have fun. Otherwise, I'm staying out of it. Throwing insults, factual or otherwise, does nothing to educate anyone. The lack of resect in your posts speaks very loudly for itself. If you are a sample of your group, then I want no part of it.
Um... I've been presenting my argument quite diligently here over the past few days. It's not my fault if it flies miles above your heads...
Do my comments show a lack of understanding or a lack of agreement? There is a big difference.
Our conversation has drifted from abortion to my debunking of the "overpopulation" argument, which was acceptable to a degree, but it has drifted further after that. I won't want to hijack this thread any further, so I'm moving my replies to the "Anarcho-Capitalist criticism of 'animal rights'" thread instead.
The termination of a small bunch of cells for the betterment of the potential mother/child is far different than abusing/torturing/killing already born beings for momentary taste sensation :\
I have a hard time with this one too, personally. I cant wrap my head around abortion because even if its "just a fetus" it will eventually be a person. its not like, maybe it will end up being a giraffe, or a potato. its going to be a person. I used to be a fetus, you know?
On the other hand, I'm not going to tell anyone else what to do. Which is my stance on vegan-ism as well. Decide whats right for yourself.
Abortion is wrong, except in cases to save the women's life. A fetus is a living human being, whether born yet or not. Just like us and just like animals they can feel and have emotions. Now I know that a bunch of people up in Washington have decleared that a fetus is nothing more than a group of cells, but IMO they're wrong. A fetus is a baby.
I generally enjoy seeing old threads resurrected -- it's fun looking back and going, 'MAN, what was I thinking? there's typos ALL in this post !... or, yeah, that was a really good point so-and-so raised -- but... did you guys read all of this thread? Pretty much every permutation of every viewpoint has been argued to the point of tatters... and no one's going to change their stance. So.
Submitted for consideration: I think this thread should be laid to the honored rest that it has so richly earned, unless someone can think of something NEW to say about the issue. Or, if we MUST go there again (which plan, honestly, seems to me -- pardon the pun -- unproductive), at least please read & respond to what came before, so that we're not reinventing this particular philosophical wheel full of worms. If I may mix my metaphors. Thank you! :)
Submitted for consideration: I think this thread should be laid to the honored rest that it has so richly earned, unless someone can think of something NEW to say about the issue.
I've done a good job staying away.
However, even if they don't offer anything new, I think newbies should be allowed to weigh in their opinion, and it if keeps the thread alive for years to come and goes no where, so be it.
I've done a good job staying away.
However, even if they don't offer anything new, I think newbies should be allowed to weigh in their opinion, and it if keeps the thread alive for years to come and goes no where, so be it.
Guess that's true too... Maybe I can just emulate your self control, & not get dragged into the quagmire again! (sigh, doubt it, but I guess it won't hurt me to try!)
I've done a good job staying away.
However, even if they don't offer anything new, I think newbies should be allowed to weigh in their opinion, and it if keeps the thread alive for years to come and goes no where, so be it.
Guess that's true too... Maybe I can just emulate your self control, & not get dragged into the quagmire again! (sigh, doubt it, but I guess it won't hurt me to try!)
LOL.....I love having the last word and can't understand why people don't think like me, so I'm proud that I was able to step aside when I was threw spewing out my wisdom.
You should see me in action sometimes at Allnurses.com.....I don't give an inch in some political discussions, but I've learned "when to hold them and when to fold them". :)
I love having the last word and can't understand why people don't think like me
OMFG -- what a coincidence: me too!! what are the odds??!!!
so I'm proud that I was able to step aside when I was threw spewing out my wisdom.
:P I... am envious of your self control. Nobody's perfect, right? and this, I admit, is a weakness for me: I have a hard time STOPPING my spigot of (in MY opinion!!) "wisdom"... however unappreciated it may be in a given situation... Working on it! Your example is both greatly needed and appreciated. ;)b
You should see me in action sometimes at Allnurses.com.....I don't give an inch in some political discussions, but I've learned "when to hold them and when to fold them". :)
I probably, in fact, should NOT... this is a skill I have not yet mastered; I would almost certainly feel compelled to argue. ;D (that's why 'Food Fight' is my crystal meth, lol!)
I have to say, Tweety: no matter the topic, yours is a voice of reason and tolerance: I admire that, very much, even when we disagree on a given issue. :)
Thanks hotcook! I try to stay on good behavior, but it's not easy.
My philosophy is just because it isn't something I would personally do, then it doesn't mean it should be illegal.
My philosophy is just because it isn't something I would personally do, then it doesn't mean it should be illegal.
I think the world would be a happier place if more people could take this stance on more issues.
Agreed. Plus, a woman shouldn't be told what she can and cannot do with her body. It's a matter of freedom of choice. I think it's ridiculous when people say that it's killing a baby (and it really creeps me out when catholic churches place crosses in the "front yard" of the church to represent babies "killed" through abortions). I mean, what if a woman was raped? What if she had unprotected sex and ended up pregnant? Does she have to suffer through a pregnancy when she doesn't want to...that would be a sick sick punishment in my opinion. Abortions should never EVER be illegal. Even if they were they would still be done under the radar which is much more dangerous than a regulated and funded procedure. But that's just my opinion *shrugs* ...
Sometimes people who are pro-life say that women should deal with the consequences of their actions, as in carry through the pregnancy if they were such "sluts" that they got pregnant and weren't married. I've never understood that the same people that are arguing that "it's a life" and a precious thing are the same people that are using said pregnancy and life as a PUNISHMENT to the mother. A pregnancy and a child should never be used as a threatening tool, as a punishment for choices. What kind of life does that guarantee the child, that they were bestowed upon their mother as a punishment for her actions?
Woman are not always in control of their circumstances, especially if they live in impoverished areas or other circumstances. Why should she have to live with consequences for which she did not decide 100% of the means? Not everything is a black and white scenario, and who I am to tell other women what to do with their bodies when I have never been sexually abused or molested, I've always had freedom in my relationships to date who I want and when I want, and I have always been physically in control of my body? Every woman should be so lucky. But they're not. And the patriarchy has no right to oppress women, to make their choices for them, then make them live with the aftermath of the choices that were made before they ever had a sexual encounter. Those who see past this are either naive or so out-of-touch that the last thing they should be doing is making laws to dictate others' thoughts and behaviors.
I kept telling myself I'd shut up and leave them alone, but apparently I couldn't. Sorry HCM and Tweety for keeping it going!
Fetus is just the Latin word for Baby.
A baby is the most wonderful thing that life has to offer - how could a child ever be a punishment?
I cannot imagine killing a human being for, say, being handicapped, or being conceived out of wedlock before being born any more than after it was born.
A baby has brain waves stareting at 5 weeks gestation - and there is every reason to believe that he or she feels pain, too.
Read the descriptions of abortions in the famous supreme court cases (such ast this one http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=000&invol=99-830) -and seriously think through whether you can approve of babies being deprived of life that brutally, while disapproving much more comparatively humane treatment of farm animals.
"Primum, non nocere. First do no harm. Sounds sooo much classier in Latin...most things do, including Non Iligitimi Vincit...Don't Let the Bastards Win."
VV: I LOVE ur posts! Nice wordage!
...there are times when abortion is the least-harm option, especially before the embryo's central nervous system is hooked up & running. History well-documents the harm to women & children that comes from no legal access to that medical service... & I don't think anyone that hasn't had to walk that road of desperate choices has the right to judge others who have. I also believe that no one has the right to mandate that kind of decision for anyone else. This has nothing to do with ethical food choices, except that it's important to figure out where you stand on both, in order to live a life that's true to your own best self.
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