McDougall article against supplements
Posted by propinecone on Jun 03, 2010 · Member since May 2007 · 2842 posts
interesting & definitely worth the quick read, but he doesnt mention ways to get B12 which confuses me..
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I think Dr. McDougall hits the nail on the head with most things. I fully agree with his philosophy of food as medicine and believe that you can get most of the nutrients you need if you eat a healthy, varied diet.
This article seems to be aimed at those who don't eat a healthy, varied diet and supplement with sheisty-sourced chemicals to make up for it. I did the same thing when I was an omni. Mac and cheese for lunch with a One-A-Day. I looked as mediocre as I felt.
As a vegan, I eat mostly grains and vegetables. I try to eat as varied as I can while keeping on budget. But I feel worse than mediocre when I don't take my vitamins. Maybe it's the placebo effect taking care of the headaches and fatigue. I feel like the two vitamins I take are probably less harmful than coffee, which would be the alternative :)
I don't notice a difference in how I feel if I don't take a supplement. I can go a few weeks without it and still feel the same.
I don't supplement every day, just when I think about it. I don't think it's necessary to pop supplements daily because my diet is reasonably health and varied. Also some cereals, foods and "milks" and tofu's are fortified.
Call me lazy but I'd rather take a supplement to assure that I'm getting what I might be low on if I eat crappy for a few days, or don't get enough variety for being too busy, or cooking too much of the same thing and eating it for a few days.
It's an individual decision. Many "healthier than thou" folks stick their noses up at us whom supplement for not being as pure as them, but screw them. I do think those who down 10 different supplements a day are wasting their money and not really doing themselves much good.
sorry - i guess i shouldve linked to the page that it takes you to when you click on the 'more' link on the original page. it talks about increased health problems associated with supplements, (cancer, etc). also, about how taking a supplement doesnt have the same benefits as eating an actual plant which contains nutrients.
here it is - it's longer but still interesting and new info/studies i hadnt heart before.
http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2010nl/may/vitamins.htm
I definately agree that a supplement shouldn't replace healthy whole foods.
I completely agree with him.
I've been pretty staunchly "anti-supplementation" for the last couple of years, basically for the reasons he outlines.
I think it is interesting that he goes over the importance of whole foods and the combination of nutrients, though, and he is not an advocate of eating all raw (since nutrients are damaged in cooking and the interaction is different.. cooking also creates compounds that weren't previously in foods). I don't know a ton about the McDougall diet, but I know it's low fat and starch based (grains).
I think, though, that along with eschewing supplementation, one must work on increasing their ability to ABSORB everything they take in. For instance, the main reason for b12 deficiency is malabsorption. It's a huuuge problem in meat eaters and vegans alike. I have lately been pretty convinced that we get it in small amount from organic produce that was grown in good, no b12 depleted soil, non-perfectly washed veggies, and there have even been studies that it is also produced in small amounts (which is all we need) in our mouths! As long as we aren't eating things that irritate our system then we should be able to absorb those small amounts we need and be fine :). I'm hoping that I won't have to take b12 at any point (I do not supplement or eat fortified foods), but I will let you guys know if I do.
I have lately been pretty convinced that we get it in small amount from organic produce that was grown in good, no b12 depleted soil, non-perfectly washed veggies
i eat dirty carrots from the farmer's market. i'm hoping there's some b-12 in there.
Prop,
Perhaps McDoughall fails to mention B12 (and D and DHA) in his article because it would be too difficult otherwise to try to promote his perspective that "avoiding supplements and vitamins" is more healthy than taking them. There are so many flaws in this logic that I don't even know where to begin. I'm sure I'm going to get attacked and lectured to by some of you. I'm already well aware, and that is fine.
You do not need to be a well-educated health-nut, a life-long vegetarian, a "doctor," or even a certified nutritionist to see how silly this article and it's "logic" are.
While Mr. McDoughall goes on and on about how horrible it is to rely on multivitamins and supplements rather than focusing on a varied diet, though he never mentions how exactly people are prone to "overdosing" by using supplements like he suggests they are. Give me a break. How many vegans do you know who have overdosed on any particular vitamin?
McDoughall's comment about how a vitamin deficiency is more easily fixed than is a vitamin surplus is empty. I mean, sure... He IS absolutely correct: it IS the case that undoing a deficiency is an easier issue to deal with than the issue of dealing with a vitamin surplus affecting one's health. But so what?! Just because that is true does not further his arguement. There are no real connections in his logic, except for the hope that there is by like-minded individuals. He is just spewing unrelatable information to further a cause that is anything BUT scientific or nutrionally sound. Most vegans--unless they are extremely silly, and so this goes for the silly non-vegans too--are NOT going to develop health complications due to vitamin surplus. Again: GIVE ME A BREAK.
The crazy people who are taking way too many supplements and vitamins are obviously not the standard example of people who take a freakin' daily multivitamin. The same people who overdose on vitamins are probably already on some sort of prescription medication anyway. Any person vaguely familiar with nutrition knows better than to take 10 different supplements.
If someone is eating a well-planned, varied vegan diet and taking a multivitamin, they are not going to overdose on any vitamins. It takes a lot of really misguided and ignorant effort to overdose on any specific vitamin. Eating a well-balance diet on a regular basis AND taking a daily multivitamin is PERFECTLY FINE.
The people who are not not taking supplements may really need to continue this ritualistic avoidance in order to keep their mindset at ease: that they are following the "most nutritious and most natural and healthy diet in the whole world." But, you know what? It's a crock of bull. The people who are not taking any sort of supplements are having their nutritional needs met by consuming fortified foods. And if they're not eating any fortified foods, then good luck HOPING for your B12 in dirty carrots. LOL.
And, sorry to burst any bubbles, but drinking soymilk with D2 and B12, eating yogurt with B12, and sprinkling nutritional yeast in soup or on pizza is NOT ANY DIFFERENT (as far as your body is concerned) than taking a concentrated "multivitamin" or "supplement." The difference between fortified foods and supplements is a CATEGORICAL one. By taking a minute to look beyond this little linguistic conundrum, it's easy to see that, outside of this categorial difference, popping a vegan multivitamin or eating/drinking fortified foods are basically the same thing. That soy milk you are drinking did not have B12 and D2 in it; it was created separately and then mixed it. The same is true for ANY OTHER FORTIFIED VEGAN FOODS.
So please, just because some of you can't handle having your mindsets disturbed by the possibility that the vegan diet is not the best and most natural diet to ever grace mankind, don't distribute this nonsense and risk SOMEONE ELSE'S health.
All diets are artificial.
The average vegan (and especially a new vegan) who is not a nutritionist or a chef should absolutely be taking a daily vegan multivitamin in addition to consuming fortified vegan foods.
Don't risk your health by hoping for B12 in dirty vegetables. It is a fact that you will probably get some B12 in that way, but why risk the possibility that it the amounts are inadequate? Do you honestly think you're going to overdose on B12?
i stated in my post that i do not eat fortified foods OR supplement. i know that many foods are fortified. I also believe that McDougall recommends a diet of unfortified foods (all whole foods.. including whole, unfortified, grains). Now, I have not been doing this for a long time, which is why I never stated with certainty that my nutrient intake and absorption are perfect, but I do know of people on the same diet as me long term that are fine.
also, you totally miss the point. it's not the OD of the vitamins, it's that the way in which they interact is COMPLETELY IGNORED in inorganic supplements and fortification. It's ignored by "nutritionists" (I use this term lightly, because it means nothing) and registered dietitians as well... I should know, since I have a bachelors degree in nutritional sciences. There are many vitamins and phytonutrients that have yet to even be discovered (lets remember how young nutrition is as a science)... Let's say that we have a vitamin that we are supplementing (lets call it vit X) and it needs to be processed by a certain chemical/phytonutrient that is either undiscovered or the process is undiscovered (lets call it chemical Y), chemical Y also is used to process another vitamin, lets call it vitamin Z... We supplement vitamin X, maybe even Vitamin Z, but for the sake of not being outlandish we'll just say X.. We get a lot of it... Our bases are covered, yeah? Well, unfortunately, since the chemical Y was not in the supplement, we aren't getting enough of it to process all of the X that we've taken in... And all of the chemical Y is going towards trying to process the insane amount of that.. What happens to vitamin Z? uh-oh, we've got a deficiency!!!! This is totally hypothetical, but I hope you can understand that it is very much something that can happen.
btw, sure water soluble vitamins are pretty easily excreted when we take them in in excess, but many people don't realize that fat soluble vitamins ARE NOT.. neither are minerals.
When we focus our diets on supplementation we are treating the symptoms rather than the cause. When we focus on the symptoms all we do is prolong whatever it is that we are dealing with... A very common problem with supplementation. Obviously, supplements are a new thing... We should NOT need them to be healthy and the only reason that some people do need them is because of an inadequate diet in the first place, or because of malabsorption... Both should be able to be fixed through eating a diet that is meant for our species... If people are not prepared to do that then they can have fun supplementing those things that they are deficient in and hope for the best ;)
Hespedal,
Thanks for your response. I see your point a little more clearly now. However, I still don't really feel I necessarily missed McDoughall's point. I completely understand that he thinks the focus should be on proper diet and that focusing on supplements alone will not promote long-term health. He's totally right. My only problem with his suggestion is his claim that it's actually MORE HEALTHY to AVOID supplements. I think that's going a little too far. And, I think that avoiding fortified foods is a little risky too.
I am always, always looking for more information to improve my diet. I am vegan for ethical reasons, so I came to veganism first and foremost to figure out how to live life while avoiding animal products. After making that decision, I tried (and am still trying) to figure out how to do this as adequately and as healthfully as possible. I've read so much contradictory information, that I have found the safest solution may be to combine various aspects of the plethora of nutritional guidelines there are out there. Some say whole foods ONLY; some prefer raw; some say avoid soy; some say soy is perfectly fine; some say you need more grains than anything else; some say you need more vegetables and fruits than you do grains. So what do you do with all of this information?
Personally, I eat a mostly organic and whole foods diet. I prepare all of my own meals at home. Broccoli, carrots, mushrooms, sprouts, and spinach leaves are some of my staples. I eat them raw in salads, steamed, cooked in soups (in which I usually sprinkle a little nutritional yeast ), etc. I only eat organic whole-grain breads and organic, non-GMO tofu. I keep my soy intake to 1-2 servings a day, so I definitely don't think I'm overdoing it. I eat lots of raw fruits, especially bananas, apples, and peaches. I do eat some processed vegan foods, but it's not the majority of what I eat. Sometimes (not every day) I'll have a veggie dog or a rice burger. Every now and then, maybe 2-3 times a week, I'll have a cup of coconut milk yogurt (which is fortified with B12). Every day I drink some sort of fortified plant milk. I never drink soy milk: usually hemp, almond, or oat milk. Ninety percent of the time I drink fortified hempmilk. I also eat some nuts, sparingly, and eat granola cereals with pumpkin and flax seeds. In addition to my diet, I take one daily multivitamin.
Like you, I'm not sure if my nutritional needs are being met. Since you do have a degree, maybe you are more aware of some subtleties of the science of nutrition that I'm not aware of.
Also, you mentioned "eating a diet that is meant for our species." Well, I'm no nutrition expert, but my degree is in anthropology, and I can tell you right now that the first known Homo sapiens in sub-Saharan Africa were definitely not vegetarians or vegans. They definitely were not eating whole grains, broccoli, mushrooms, spinach leaves, and carrots. We know they were hunting animals for food and scavenging the meat of other predators. We know they collected fruit that were in the area. We really don't know a whole lot about everything they were eating, but they were definitely not eating many things that a Western nutritionist would recommend today.
In all honesty, there is no diet that is meant for our species. Diet is always artificial. Having species-specific nutritional needs is not equivalent to having a particular "natural diet." There are probably hundreds of diets (both including and excluding animal products) that could be contrived in the attempt to meet whatever the species-specific nutritional needs of humans are. And we both agree that the fullest understanding of the nutritional needs of humans (and how to best meet them) are unknown.
My concern is soley with the idea that fortified foods, multivitamins, or supplements are IN AND OF THEMSELVES, DANGEROUS. I think it's dangerous to be putting forth THAT kind of an idea. Like you said, it seems the worst that can happen is that the supplement you're taking is will not work adequately. I don't think there is really any health RISK involved though; do you? McDoughall's article, if taken at face value, would have its readers believe that they should immediately stop supplementing if they are. But, McDoughall doesn't know anything about the various diets of all of these individuals. He is right to suggest that they should all focus much more on the food they eat rather than relying on supplements, but he neglects the reality that most people (especially beginners) are going to need months if not years of figuring out how to incorporate a well-planed, varied, nutritionally sound vegan diet into their everyday lives. In the meantime, I think most vegans should probably eat a serving or two of fortified food each day and take a daily multivitamin. It seems to me perfectly reasonable and more advisable to do so than to not do so.
Hespedal,
Thanks for your response. I see your point a little more clearly now. However, I still don't really feel I necessarily missed McDoughall's point. I completely understand that he thinks the focus should be on proper diet and that focusing on supplements alone will not promote long-term health. He's totally right. My only problem with his suggestion is his claim that it's actually MORE HEALTHY to AVOID supplements. I think that's going a little too far. And, I think that avoiding fortified foods is a little risky too.
I am always, always looking for more information to improve my diet. I am vegan for ethical reasons, so I came to veganism first and foremost to figure out how to live life while avoiding animal products. After making that decision, I tried (and am still trying) to figure out how to do this as adequately and as healthfully as possible. I've read so much contradictory information, that I have found the safest solution may be to combine various aspects of the plethora of nutritional guidelines there are out there. Some say whole foods ONLY; some prefer raw; some say avoid soy; some say soy is perfectly fine; some say you need more grains than anything else; some say you need more vegetables and fruits than you do grains. So what do you do with all of this information?
Personally, I eat a mostly organic and whole foods diet. I prepare all of my own meals at home. Broccoli, carrots, mushrooms, sprouts, and spinach leaves are some of my staples. I eat them raw in salads, steamed, cooked in soups (in which I usually sprinkle a little nutritional yeast ), etc. I only eat organic whole-grain breads and organic, non-GMO tofu. I keep my soy intake to 1-2 servings a day, so I definitely don't think I'm overdoing it. I eat lots of raw fruits, especially bananas, apples, and peaches. I do eat some processed vegan foods, but it's not the majority of what I eat. Sometimes (not every day) I'll have a veggie dog or a rice burger. Every now and then, maybe 2-3 times a week, I'll have a cup of coconut milk yogurt (which is fortified with B12). Every day I drink some sort of fortified plant milk. I never drink soy milk: usually hemp, almond, or oat milk. Ninety percent of the time I drink fortified hempmilk. I also eat some nuts, sparingly, and eat granola cereals with pumpkin and flax seeds. In addition to my diet, I take one daily multivitamin.
Like you, I'm not sure if my nutritional needs are being met. Since you do have a degree, maybe you are more aware of some subtleties of the science of nutrition that I'm not aware of.
Also, you mentioned "eating a diet that is meant for our species." Well, I'm no nutrition expert, but my degree is in anthropology, and I can tell you right now that the first known Homo sapiens in sub-Saharan Africa were definitely not vegetarians or vegans. They definitely were not eating whole grains, broccoli, mushrooms, spinach leaves, and carrots. We know they were hunting animals for food and scavenging the meat of other predators. We know they collected fruit that were in the area. We really don't know a whole lot about everything they were eating, but they were definitely not eating many things that a Western nutritionist would recommend today.
In all honesty, there is no diet that is meant for our species. Diet is always artificial. Having species-specific nutritional needs is not equivalent to having a particular "natural diet." There are probably hundreds of diets (both including and excluding animal products) that could be contrived in the attempt to meet whatever the species-specific nutritional needs of humans are. And we both agree that the fullest understanding of the nutritional needs of humans (and how to best meet them) are unknown.
My concern is soley with the idea that fortified foods, multivitamins, or supplements are IN AND OF THEMSELVES, DANGEROUS. I think it's dangerous to be putting forth THAT kind of an idea. Like you said, it seems the worst that can happen is that the supplement you're taking is will not work adequately. I don't think there is really any health RISK involved though; do you? McDoughall's article, if taken at face value, would have its readers believe that they should immediately stop supplementing if they are. But, McDoughall doesn't know anything about the various diets of all of these individuals. He is right to suggest that they should all focus much more on the food they eat rather than relying on supplements, but he neglects the reality that most people (especially beginners) are going to need months if not years of figuring out how to incorporate a well-planed, varied, nutritionally sound vegan diet into their everyday lives. In the meantime, I think most vegans should probably eat a serving or two of fortified food each day and take a daily multivitamin. It seems to me perfectly reasonable and more advisable to do so than to not do so.
I don't think it's going to far to say that we should avoid supplements, they are not ideal, have all kinds of substances in them OTHER than inorganic viatmins/minerals and just seem to be way too much of an unknown. Other than just excesses and imbalances it's still not "healthy" to ingest something that has stuff that you don't need.
I wouldn't suggest combining various aspects of different peoples programs... what happens if you take the bad stuff from each? Honestly, I look at the information logically and try to figure it out from there. Like I stated in my other post, nutrition is a young, and unfortunately VERY corrupt science. Pretty much everything is biased and you can make scientific studies prove anything you want to. Including stuff towards veganism, I'm sure. Of course, I'm an ethical vegan, so even if I found the diet I practice to be unhealthy, I would supplement and just sacrifice my health a bit, but I do believe it to be our optimal diet.
I'm sure your nutritional needs are being met, it's whether you are meeting them in the ways in which you are designed to. That is my worry and that which this article is exploring.
I'd love to know more about what you know coming from an anthropology background on your ideas of a species specific diet... But I don't want to derail this thread.. I'll have to PM you (it may be a while, though, terrible at getting around to thing like that.. but expect inquiries!).
Don't risk your health by hoping for B12 in dirty vegetables. It is a fact that you will probably get some B12 in that way, but why risk the possibility that it the amounts are inadequate? Do you honestly think you're going to overdose on B12?
I take a sublingual B-12 everyday, in addition to my dirty vegetables. But thanks for your concern ::)
"icantbelieveitsvegan" said: If someone is eating a well-planned, varied vegan diet and taking a multivitamin, they are not going to overdose on any vitamins. It takes a lot of really misguided and ignorant effort to overdose on any specific vitamin. Eating a well-balance diet on a regular basis AND taking a daily multivitamin is PERFECTLY FINE.
I agree with that sentiment. Most multi-vits aren't that high of a dose to be toxic, otherwise we'd be seeing a whole lot of it in our country.
I 100% agree with the sentiment that it's not ncessary IF, and thats a big IF, you are eating whole foods in variety. For the 99% of of us whom don't a multi-vit with B12 isn't going to be toxic.
I think Dr. McDougaled is addressing people whom seem to overdo the supplements.
I don't take a separate B12, but I do eat fortified foods, just because I like those foods, namely cereal and "milks". I don't buy specifically for the fortification. As I said about 3 or 4 days I week I pop a vegan multi-vit.
Hespi, if I were you, whenever you get bloodwork done, be it soon or in 10 years, ask for a B12 level. It would be interesting to see if all the fear mongering some people do is true.
It's hard to know whom to trust. Dr. Weil recommendations supplements, but he is also a salemen for his own line of products, so he's off his pedastal as far as I'm concerned.
i'm hoping to get a blood test soon since i recently stopped all fortified foods and then look at whether it trends up or down and the range it stays in. i've gotten a blood test once before and my b12 was perfect (this was about 2 years after i went vegan).
You're probably o.k. Hespedal, especially since you eat so well. But the concern would be the long haul since there are no plant sources whatsoever (other than fertilized plants), I would continue to ask for that test whenver you go to the MD, which hopefully isn't all that often at your your age. I've never had a B12 test. My blood counts show I'm not anemic, so I'm 100% sure this vegan doesn't have a problem with B12 without adding a separate supplement.
I just wanted to say that I eat very little fortified foods and I only take two suppliments and both are for psychiatric reasons, not vegan reasons. I eat a well balanced and varied diet and get a blood test every year and I have never had a problem with vitamin and/or mineral deficiency. This is both before and after I started taking the two suppliments. Also, if you're interested I take B-100 Complex and NAC 600.
I also research food and vitamin and mineral absorbtion, etc so I try to keep myself very educated about my health and nutrition and about 3 years into my vegan diet I was helped by a scientist with these types of things as well.
Also, here's some food for thought: http://www.health.harvard.edu/healthbeat/advice-to-women-about-supplement-use-selectively