Veganism and Consumerism
I was discussing veganism with my Super-Veg*n-Supportive-Omni-DH the other day, and I mentioned some of the pricey vegan products that are on the market. He opined that it seemed to him that veganism was philosophically incompatible with the consumer culture. For instance, if you self-indulgently fly a $20,000. "vegan" couch in from some exotic location, rather than using your neighbor's leather cast-off or buying a cheap one that was part wool here, that wouldn't be in the true vegan spirit.
(I'm not talking here about special purchases that help villagers in developing countries, or otherwise have a huge humanitarian side-effect, just the consumerist mentality)
I've been mulling this over for a few days, and wondering if any of you have any thoughts on the matter.
I don't think that veganism has anything necessarily to do with anti-consumerism, but my experience is that vegans tends to be more to the left politically and that the left is generally critical of consumerism.
I think it's cool that there are so many vegan options out there, now'a days. Our rep is no longer the seeds and sprouts group (even if we eat them) and it helps people in transition. In the beginning, I went broke buying pricey premade vegan food. Once I learned to cook and make awesome food with everyday ingredients I spent a lot less on food than before.
My thought about the couch is that there are lots of ways to justify it. I think a used leather couch (not consignment) is better than a new hemp couch flown half way around the world, environmentally speaking That being said, I'd rather have a local, cotton couch since they're not that hard to find. The same thing with clothes. I used to own a lot of wool and when it rained I smelled like wet dog. Now I layer fleece and Gortex and not only is it vegan, it's really effective with warmth, wind, and rain.
I too have noticed that, depending on where you live, if you're gonna be a strict vegan you'd better have a highly paid job! I know things are less expensive in the States (makes sense, larger population, more veg*ns in proportion, bigger market) than here, but still I gasp sometimes at the prices of stuff.
In order to avoid the whole "fly it in from the other end of the earth" thing, you do need to do a lot of research! The pricey way is sometimes easier, but if you look you can often find vegan options closer to home. You may need a little imagination and effort such as making your own rice milk or sprouts, and finding alternatives to the gadgets such as ready made "sprouters" on the market. My mother sprouted her own using a colander and a piece of nylon netting and it worked fine. It didn't look as cool as the manufactured kits I see online, but when she wasn't sprouting the colander did duty elsewere and the net was about 15c a yard in those days.
from an environmental perspective veganism and anti-consumerism come from the same place, but that's not always what people base these two philosophies on. and for me, taht's just how it is. no new clothes or household items, no produce that isn't locally grown, all that jazz.
and i've actually been saving a lot of money by veganizing my life. i never eat out or buy pre-made frozen foods anymore. everything is a lot cheaper when you are cooking it at home from scratch.
Yes, it is cheaper to make your food at home from scratch. I spend a crapload of money at the grocery store but I eat out very infrequently (once a month or less) so I think in the wash, I still spend less on food being vegan than I would if I were omnivore.
I also know that some vegans (read: me) aren't vegan primarily for environmental/rejection of consumerism reasons. My sole reason for becoming a vegan was to spare animals suffering. So, if my only choices were a locally made wool couch or the $20,000 world traveled hemp variety, I'd choose the latter. (But let's be honest here, we know that's not usually the case. Ususally there is a locally available environmentally/animal friendly alternative--such as that cotton one Honey referred to.) For me, I realize and accept reduction of animal suffering isn't always logical. But my primary reason for becoming vegan was emotional.
An added benefit has been that I'm also more aware of the environment and choose appropriately. I also hate consumerism and so reject wanton and irresponsible use of resources. But I'll admit, when it comes to rejecting consumerism and helping an animal, the animal will always win, hands down.
I am batting around the idea of complete veganism for health reasons only. Also, I'd say I'm likely one of the least liberal individuals on this board. Politically, I'm a positively astonishing hodge podge of liberal and conservative viewpoints. One the subject of vegan, "items," not foodstuffs, I don't hold much of an issue with certain animal products, I don't use them myself, but to each his own.
Let's take leather for example. Beef subsidizes the cost of leather, there are no cattle slaughtered simply for their leather, with the exception of a private heard that Ferrari keeps on hand, (no kidding), but those are likely some of the best treated cattle in the world, and they are euthanized humanely if there is such a thing. If veganism, as a dietary idea caught on, the market for beef would no longer be able to subsidize leather products, and all things made of leather, from shoes to sofas would become prohibitively expensive.
Honestly, most people are to oblivious to the rest of the world to care about where their leather shoes came from, but in order for a grass roots effort of this type to really take hold, you can't appeal to the compassion of humanity, because I can tell you that it is scarce, you have to appeal to the selfish nature of the individual. If you can pry the average american's attention away from american idol for a few minutes, and show them how animal foods effect them, because let's be serious, they only care about themselves, you might be able to drill home a few meaningful points.
It's like inverse economics, this is a trickle up effect. If we start taking blocks out of the bottom of the pyramid, in the case of bovine products, beef specifically, then the top will fall down under simple economic pressure. No one is going to buy a pair of leather pumps when they cost $800 because the beef industry is no longer there to subsidize the production of leather. I hope that rambling post was at least partially understandable, and I hope that you can see my point.
So, if my only choices were a locally made wool couch or the $20,000 world traveled hemp variety, I'd choose the latter.
I've thought about that before. I can't remember the journal, but I once read that if you buy cut flowers in a vase that were grown in Central/South America, the volume the vase holds is equivalent to the oil used to transport the flowers. A couch would probably be shipped. I don't know what the difference is pollution wise, but they drop their waste in the ocean. The oil companies are pushing, sometimes successfully, to drill oil in environmentally sensitive areas. It's not a matter of "if" they have an oil spill, but how many oil spills they'll have of what volumes. The oil spills kill animals. The couch transported half way around the world kills animals.
Even if we were going to change the object, I'm not sure there is anything that I need. I didn't have chairs in my house for about a decade. I sat and slept on the floor. I was given a bed a couple of years ago, but I wouldn't have bought one myself - but it sure would be nice to have an extra 20 grand for a couch. 8)
Spuy767 - There are people here who are vegan for health reasons and have leather couches. I have been shopping with people who I believe would spend $700 on a pair of shoes, because if they cost $700 they'd be more exclusive and therefore desirable. I'm the freak friend. The rest in my group have closets full of pricey handbags that are valued because when they carry them around people know the bag is expensive. It takes all types...
Let's take leather for example. Beef subsidizes the cost of leather, there are no cattle slaughtered simply for their leather, with the exception of a private heard that Ferrari keeps on hand, (no kidding), but those are likely some of the best treated cattle in the world, and they are euthanized humanely if there is such a thing. If veganism, as a dietary idea caught on, the market for beef would no longer be able to subsidize leather products, and all things made of leather, from shoes to sofas would become prohibitively expensive.
Honestly, most people are to oblivious to the rest of the world to care about where their leather shoes came from, but in order for a grass roots effort of this type to really take hold, you can't appeal to the compassion of humanity, because I can tell you that it is scarce, you have to appeal to the selfish nature of the individual. If you can pry the average american's attention away from american idol for a few minutes, and show them how animal foods effect them, because let's be serious, they only care about themselves, you might be able to drill home a few meaningful points.
It's like inverse economics, this is a trickle up effect. If we start taking blocks out of the bottom of the pyramid, in the case of bovine products, beef specifically, then the top will fall down under simple economic pressure. No one is going to buy a pair of leather pumps when they cost $800 because the beef industry is no longer there to subsidize the production of leather. I hope that rambling post was at least partially understandable, and I hope that you can see my point.
Spuy--you make interesting and valid points about leather. I never thought about the the fact that leather would not be an everyday commodity if it were not for the demand of beef for consumption.
It's not just selfishness that drives people, but also the herd/sheeple mentality (among other things). I sometimes think that an experiment should be carried out in which you take an average omni American and move him/her into a large community consisting entirely of vegans, without the person having any foreknowledge of this. How long will it take for that person to become a vegan, too? Probably not too long. People tend to do what their neighbors, family, and friends do. I find that "fitting in" and doing whatever is status quo dictates much of how the average American decides to live his or her life.
sheeple
I'm taking it. ;D I want a sheeple bumper sticker.
I find that "fitting in" and doing whatever is status quo dictates much of how the average American decides to live his or her life.
Is not the desire to fit in just another selfish product of the sheeple mentality? It's like the the cool kids in middle or high school who, in order to fit in made fun of people who could, most likely, not help their situation, be it financial or aesthetic. People will do crazy things to fit in and often have little regard to how it affects those around them.
I find that "fitting in" and doing whatever is status quo dictates much of how the average American decides to live his or her life.
Is not the desire to fit in just another selfish product of the sheeple mentality? It's like the the cool kids in middle or high school who, in order to fit in made fun of people who could, most likely, not help their situation, be it financial or aesthetic. People will do crazy things to fit in and often have little regard to how it affects those around them.
Exactly. That's why I, in turn, made fun of the "cool kids" when I was in high school. ;)
If more people thought for themselves, educated themselves, going vegan/vegetarian would be much more popular. Because, as all of us here know, it is just logical and it makes sense health wise. We don't need to all agree on the details, but I think each and every person that posts regularly here is someone who has broken away from the pack, and that is something most of us have in common, including you. Which is why I am here so much. No sheeple here. I have much respect for most vegwebbers. If ever I have given someone a difficult time here on vegweb (e.g., poor Habanero), it's because I had a knee-jerk reaction when they have offended/insulted someone innocent. Though, I have noticed that there are a few people who occasionally can't tell the difference between easy lighthearted banter done all in the name of good fun and a serious defense against an attack that is done in earnest. It's no big deal though.
I've been away from the computer since I first posted this topic, You all have had some great thoughts here!
I realized though after I got home that I had left something out.
My DH's point was that it is greed and consumerism that created factory farming - we have an entire culture that cannot accept a reasonable profit for production, but must have an astronomical one. Competition and a get-rich-quick mentality caused farming to turn into the gruesome institution that it now sometimes is. Investment stocks have to skyrocket every quarter, or the company risks going out of business. His point was that if we are consumerist in our thinking, that we contribute to the very cruelty and desecration of the environment and inequitable treatment of the world's poor that we are trying to fight against.
My guess is that even those motivated to veganism by health reasons aren't completely unconcerned about the other vegan issues.
So, hope that adds a little spark to the discussion/food for thought.
My grandparents had a cattle ranch. My grandfather grew up during the depression and started the ranch with no money and built it up from there. It's my grandparents that did without - the cattle came first. It was really hard for me to understand what people were talking about when they referred to animal abuse in the cattle industry. Then, I saw a "corporate" farm and understood. I think that once a company is part of something larger, especially if it's a public company, the focus becomes on earnings and whatever it takes to make more and more and more and more. I mentioned this before, but I gave up dairy before I gave up meat. I saw a corporate dairy farm up-close and that was it for me.
My thought is that people have gotten into the habit of having too much. I'm guilty of that, but I'm trying to break the habit. I live in a 1,000 square foot (93 square meter) house and when I went drinking glass shopping I wanted to buy 12 glasses in case I had a party. I don't know 12 people who would drive to my house (I live in an area remote to my friends), but I thought I should have them just in case. I ended up buying eight, although I probably only need four to cover myself and company. I think a lot of us shop that way.
With meat, people are recommended to eat a three-ounce serving a day. Meat eaters would feel cheated with only a three ounce serving. Bigger is better.
As I ramble, one more thing that encourages consummerism is that people can afford to indulge. I work with a lot of men who have stay-at-home wives. Without the second income they have to be more careful with their money. If a button comes off their shirt, they are more likely to sew the button back on. The men in two income households are more likely to go buy another shirt. I'm sure it works this way with women too, but I work mostly with men so that's what I know.
Humboldt_Honey said:
;D ;D ;D
I think you are right - most people shop that way & yes, it comes from having more discretionary income. What helped me become less consumeristic was taking a significant amount of time off from work. We were thinking of buying a newer, bigger house, & then one night my husband said, "Or you could quit your job for a year." So I quit & it turned into 2.5 years & was one of the best times of my life. While we were able to get by on just his salary without going into our savings account, I suddenly had very little discretionary income, but I was going to school & having a wonderful time not being tied to the nine-to-five grind. Oh, & who works nine-to-five? My hours have always been 8-to-5, with a forced hour lunch that you frequently work through. ::)
Anyway, even when I went back to work & had more discretionary income I had ditched the consumer thing -- or at least, lessened it significantly. We have since paid off our itty bitty house & my husband is at the end of his 2.5 years off & we survive on my part time job. When I visit my friends in their new, big houses with their nice furniture I remember that they are committed to The Grind & that I could do that too, if I want to trade my free time for stuff.
Remember in Gone With the Wind at the very beginning in the garden there was a sundial with the inscripted words: Time is the essence of our lives.
I think you are right - most people shop that way & yes, it comes from having more discretionary income. What helped me become less consumeristic was taking a significant amount of time off from work. We were thinking of buying a newer, bigger house, & then one night my husband said, "Or you could quit your job for a year." So I quit & it turned into 2.5 years & was one of the best times of my life. While we were able to get by on just his salary without going into our savings account, I suddenly had very little discretionary income, but I was going to school & having a wonderful time not being tied to the nine-to-five grind. Oh, & who works nine-to-five? My hours have always been 8-to-5, with a forced hour lunch that you frequently work through. ::)
Anyway, even when I went back to work & had more discretionary income I had ditched the consumer thing -- or at least, lessened it significantly. We have since paid off our itty bitty house & my husband is at the end of his 2.5 years off & we survive on my part time job.
Wow! That is inspiring! To have no mortgage, and only one of you has to work part time! That is great! :)
Well, the flip side is we have 30 year old furniture, old cars, we don't eat out often & we don't take vacations. We are introverts & like staying at home so it isn't really a problem. All our stores, including the health food store, are within walking distance so we don't drive much. The library is only a few blocks away & Blockbuster online is fantastic, especially since there is a Blockbuster store just a mile away. We are currently watching the original Kung Fu series. We also have a very nice & private backyard. It is small, but quiet & nice -- perfect for reading.
My sister does not understand a savings account. To her, it is something you add to until there is finally something you simply cannot resist & then you spend your savings on whatever thing it is that you want the most at the time the money has finally "burned a hole in your pocket." :D
She & my mother think we are the most boring people on the planet. ;)
8)
Sounds like a wonderful life to me :)
If there's something you don't have that you want, you can always choose to work more to buy it, but not having a mortgage hanging over your head, and not keeping up with the Joneses, means that you work for you instead of for the mortgage company or for the Joneses!
That's basically what we did...I was making minimum wage teaching English for the first half of our marriage, and we figured out that between bus fare, quick-to-make meals, shopping a different way, and paying for once a week home help, I was practically losing money on the deal. So 15 yrs ago I quit working. (English teachers at language schools are on the same pay scale as bartenders here). Then my life fell apart and I needed time at home. Now, with DH on unemployment with no disability coming for 2 yrs, and then retired, I am back at tutoring English for peanuts, BUT I do it from home, they come to me, and I don't have all the staffroom squabbles to live with. My peace of mind is worth so much more than the money!
I went out to put up flyers today to see if I can get some summer students...went into the labyrinth that is the old university building and agoraphobia hit me hard. BUT I survived, and as a "carrot" I ordered a book at the bookstore. D'Aulaire's "Norse Gods and Giants" has been reissued as "D'Aulaire's Book of Norse Gods". The pictures are so beautiful, and now I really could use it as a text for tutoring Anglo Saxon Lit. Hopefully the students will come along in the month it will take the book to arrive before I have to pay for it! ;D
I'm a capitalist and I think the consumerism is out of control!
The problem, for me, is not so much HOW much people buy ... but the practices of the companies selling. Consumers hold A LOT of power. Each time you purchase something with your money, you're voting on that company and their policies. When you buy, you vote "yes, I approve."
The problem comes in when people don't care or don't know what goes on in the practices of these companies. So, they buy a bunch of stuff from unsustainable companies who are focused on short term profit, rather than longterm (and when I say longterm, I mean LOOOONG term). Because all these people are buying from these companies, we have their products everywhere.
What we need is a major shift in awareness, where people understand that by supporting company practices that destroy the planet AND the health of the consumers (when it comes to food from factory farms) they're essentially approving the destruction of life. And, without life, obviously all of us are out of luck.
So, while vegan items can certainly be expensive ... I find it better to support ethical, sustainable companies rather than any other business. Even when buying second hand, I try to find animal friendly options. I'm the person you see in the stores writing down the names and phone numbers of companies. And then I call them and ask about their practices (if their website is obscure).
The more I support the ethical, sustainable companies ... the longer they will be around, and perhaps they will become more and more "mainstream" as awareness is spread. Now, I obviously don't have the money to buy a $20,000 couch and have it shipped to me. But, when I can support ethical, sustainable companies - I do so. They need my business because they're small dots next to the giant corporations who don't care about sustainable or humane practices.
See - us capitalists aren't all bad. ;)
my monthy budget is perhaps 700-800 a month, depending on what is going on.
i honestly don't know what i will do when i get a "real" job and am making 45-60k a year since i've been living on so little just fine.
I lived on about $600 a month in college. It helps that there were four of us cramped into a 600 square foot house. I thought I'd I be wealthy when I got my job, but instead I developed credit card debt that I never had in college. I maxed my card on things like clearance rack work clothes (I didn't own a bra when I graduated from school), car repairs, etc.
I'm completely envious of Lezly. I'm a bit too insecure about giving up health care and retirement to work part time, but it sure does sound appealing.
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