Sexism still acceptable?
Posted by dl-bailey on May 26, 2010 · Member since Oct 2008 · 286 posts
There was a comment that I heard not too long ago about women not listening when told to do something. As if women are too incompetent to make there own desicisions and have to be directed by the nearest male. Of course, I asked this person nicely to be respectful and refrain from saying gendered comments. It seems to me that people won't tolerate any derogetory statements on any ethnicity, religon or sexual orientation (understandably), but comments on women are fair game.
i don't know if it qualifies as insecurity, but domestic violence is more about control.
I think that there will be a pretty strong shift in attitude comming here in about 20 years. Reason being because fewer and fewer men have fathers in their lives. I often wonder how my son will grow up with me as his only parent. I am educated, have a good career, and am generally a very loving and good mother. I think there are a LOT of single mothers out there like me, some choose to be single, some do not.
So with the rise of the number of single mothers out there, just like me, what does the future hold? What will all these sons of single mothers grow up to think? How can a man be sexist when he is raised by a single mother? To him, a mother does EVERYTHING, cooks, cleans, AND works to bring home the paycheck but will he see this as wrong? If he got a girl pregnant will he feel like he has to take responsibility because his own father did not?
I just worry that my son will grow up to think that a man doesn't have to be responsible for his actions and think that women are the only ones who have take care of the kids, but who knows. Probably not. I wonder what the future holds?
I think sexism is still accepted, absolutely, but where I live racism and discrimination based on sexual and gender orientation are still huge, too. It's hard for me to think that the sexism is any worse than the others, although I personally feel that sexism has a national platform, whereas I am hoping the rest of the U.S. is progressing away from discrimination. It feels as though sexism is more inherent, more obvious and accepted, whereas the racism is more of an undertone, more innuendo than fact. The gay-bashing is also more obvious--nobody here is conscious enough to try and hide this yet. Fuck, I hate the midwest.
Maybe I've just been very lucky, but I really havent encountered much of this "sexism in the workplace". I've gotten every job I've ever interviewed for and I have been promoted at my current job. Actually, all of the employees that work below me in my department are men, and I've never run into an issue with that. All of my employees are very respectful. I do see that there are more men than women in the "higher up" positions, but I think you have to attribute that at least partly to the fact that it takes a while to get that far, and wayyyy more women than men eventually leave their careers to raise their family. Thats not sexist, its true, I see it all the time. I really don't believe, at least where I work (a major corporation) that if a woman chose to be the breadwinner in the family and stick with her career until retirement, that she wouldn't be just as successful as a man doing the same thing. I'm not really sure who is supposed to be "withholding power" from me. If I want something, I can get it. Any other mentality is being sexist against yourself.
If some dumbass wants to make a sexist comment, I say let him expose himself for the real insecure d-bag he is. We arent living in the 1800's where its okay to hit your wife with a stick, were living in 2010 where its just as likely that your wife is going to chop off your wiener with a cooking knife. If thats not equality, what is? :)
apnigpeelr: I am very glad that you've had such a positive experience in the workplace... hopefully that's a sign of the progress that HAS been made, in recent decades, & I'm glad to hear it!
But here's a question... WHY do you think more women have career discontinuity than men? Why is there even a term 'the mommy track' (i.e. work til pregnancy, then intermittently thereafter depending on what your husband makes/ how old your kids are), if sexism isn't still an issue in our society? There seems to me to still be a lot of BS around, regarding the 'natural' role of women (primarily gestators/ child care providers/ homemakers... 'woman's work is in the home' sort of crap)... many men ditch responsibility for their young, without cultural censure; if a dude says 'Well I just got this good job that I really like, and I'm not gonna quit to take care of a baby,' what happens is that mom does it, most of the time... even if she loves HER good job too! Lots of times, this happens even when SHE makes a higher salary... I have too many OT/PT/ST girlfriends in this boat to count... This approach is acceptable, supported, and encouraged -- for her AND for him -- by the broader society. The reverse is not true. There are some institutionalized things going on here, imo, that cheat both parties (and their offspring!)... just seems to me like (while your personal experience in the workplace has been good, for which I am glad!) you might be overlooking some pieces of the broader picture...
VR: it's not just the midwest... don't forget about the south! sucks here too, from a social justice perspective -- just so you know you're not alone! :-)
As others here have said, I think it's fair comment that the acceptability of gender stereotypes has outlived the acceptability of race/ sexual orientation stereotypes... imo, that's intimately tied to the fact that so many WOMEN buy into it! Religion has been (again, just imo) specifically and successfully utilized for this purpose, for several thousand years...
It makes a big difference how a minority group sees itself... it wasn't until gay folks & black communities said, en masse, 'o no, huh-uh, that is some serious BULLshit!' that it became unacceptable to publicly voice those particular stereotypes (tho undoubtedly, they still exist privately in the minds of bigots)... The segment of society that DOES feel that women should be ruled by men (ie uberconservative/ ultrareligious population subset) has been successful, to some degree, in framing the word 'feminist' to mean something negative, in the minds of many women. That cuts off a lot of good critical thinking at the knees, and supports stereotypical nonsense. In my opinion. And so sexism has remained ingrained to a greater degree than some other bigotries, because some women continue to accept it as normal -- or, worse, as divine mandate.
hcm: That is true, but I still think If there is "sexism" going on there at all, it goes both ways. Usually a woman will leave her job after having a baby because A: her body needs time to heal and B: daddy cant breastfeed. Some people breastfeed their kids for a year or more, and I dont know any maternity leaves that last that long. Im not saying if you werent really dedicated to your job you couldnt figure out some kind of pumping schedule, but thats not really what I'm getting at. Additionally, men are trained to think that they CANT raise kids on their own. There are even baby books that say men are too "rough" to handle a newborn, and go to any child custody case and outside of EXTREME circumstances the mother will get full or half custody and the father visitation or partial custody. I wonder what the percentage is of men that get full custody. Do they love their children any less? Are they less capable of packing a lunch? Thats not fair either.
If a woman doesnt want to leave her job, no one can force her, but if you want to have children you have to consider the fact that they will need childcare, and a lot of people would rather it be from them than a hired stranger. As for whether its the man or woman who stays home, I think society has everyone pegged.
Only few women in this country and the rest of the world are in the position to choose to work or stay home. Most women have no choice but to work. Sometimes one income in a household is not enough. Sometimes men leave or opt out of being a main breadwinner. My mother had to work fulltime almost the whole time were growing up. Almost all my friends that have children have to do the same.
Its not a recent trend, either. Women throughout history have had to generate their own income for basic necessities.
I remember a few months ago we had an internal medicine specialist come and do a talk at our school, about "life after vet school." Though we all thought he would be awesome (because he wrote a good textbook...), he basically said that the problem with veterinary medicine today is all the women.
A number of years ago the overwhelming majority of veterinarians were men, and just recently it's gone completely the other way (80% of my class is female, and that's only because they now preferentially take male students), and often now the stereotype of a vet is a woman. Anyway, apparently that's changed the whole arrangement of the hospital/residencies/etc because many women do tend to do the "mommy track," so many female veterinarians are relief doctors, or ones who work part time or temporarily to fill in. So, because of this trend (though in my experience it's not most of female doctors, just a significant portion), it's assumed there's a possibility that the recent female graduates might totally change their mind about full-time work once they settle down. So you could say being hesitant about hiring a full-time female practitioner straight out of school is discriminating (it is!), but it is at least partly based in reality. Meanwhile, that sucks for all the women who are going to work full time (whether or not they have children), though it seems like female graduates not looking to do relief work down the line wind up looking for residencies... meaning that a larger amount of the general practitioners will wind up going part-time.
ramble ramble ramble...
Women throughout history have had to generate their own income for basic necessities.
Isnt that why everyone works? How is this specific to women?
To the op-
I think what you said about hearing the men complain about a woman not following directions and sexism are two different issues.
This is what I believe both sexes have specific complaints about the other sex and sometimes it comes out in a joking matter. That's not sexism. Here are some examples-
About the women from men-
1. Your example- women cannot follow directions. Men have said that about women when it comes to mechanical things.
2. Women spend to much money shopping.
3. Women are horrible drivers.
Some examples about the men from women-
1. Men always want their tv remote control near them when watching tv. They cannot live without it.
2. Men don't help around the house when it comes to housework.
There's alot more but that's all I can think of right now. Those are legit complaints at least in both sexes eyes.
Now what sexism is-
About the women from men-
1. Women should be barefoot and pregnant.
2. An employer paying more of a salary to a man than his female employee when they do the same work.
3. Hiring practices.
4 Doesn't want the woman too pay on a date.
About the men from women-
1. Women wanting men to pay when dating.
2. Women wanting to enter mens locker rooms.
3. Female bosses demanding some hanky panky from their male employees or they would be fired.
I wouldn't worry about that one d-bailey of what you said.
To the op-
I think what you said about hearing the men complain about a woman not following directions and sexism are two different issues.
This is what I believe both sexes have specific complaints about the other sex and sometimes it comes out in a joking matter. That's not sexism. Here are some examples-
About the women from men-
1. Your example- women cannot follow directions. Men have said that about women when it comes to mechanical things.
2. Women spend to much money shopping.
3. Women are horrible drivers.
Some examples about the men from women-
1. Men always want their tv remote control near them when watching tv. They cannot live without it.
2. Men don't help around the house when it comes to housework.
There's alot more but that's all I can think of right now. Those are legit complaints at least in both sexes eyes.
Now what sexism is-
About the women from men-
1. Women should be barefoot and pregnant.
2. An employer paying more of a salary to a man than his female employee when they do the same work.
3. Hiring practices.
4 Doesn't want the woman too pay on a date.
About the men from women-
1. Women wanting men to pay when dating.
2. Women wanting to enter mens locker rooms.
3. Female bosses demanding some hanky panky from their male employees or they would be fired.
I wouldn't worry about that one d-bailey of what you said.
Gotta disagree, ST... sexism is defining a person by their genitalia. If I say, "my hubby doesn't do dishes as much as I think is fair," that's a legitimate complaint. If I say, "*men* do this or that negative thing," that's sexism -- applying broad generalizations to people I've never even met, based on the fact that they happen to be penis-humans instead of vagina-humans.
It seems like you view sexism as a finite set of beliefs, rather than a complex underlying framework for relating to other humans in the world... that isn't how I would define it, and I think to do so underestimates the destructive power of the beast (against both men and women).
What hotcooknmama said. Believing that men are bad at doing the dishes and women are terrible drivers is a symptom of sexism, not the be all and end all.
To the op-
I think what you said about hearing the men complain about a woman not following directions and sexism are two different issues.
This is what I believe both sexes have specific complaints about the other sex and sometimes it comes out in a joking matter. That's not sexism. Here are some examples-
About the women from men-
1. Your example- women cannot follow directions. Men have said that about women when it comes to mechanical things.
2. Women spend to much money shopping.
3. Women are horrible drivers.
Some examples about the men from women-
1. Men always want their tv remote control near them when watching tv. They cannot live without it.
2. Men don't help around the house when it comes to housework.
There's alot more but that's all I can think of right now. Those are legit complaints at least in both sexes eyes.
Now what sexism is-
About the women from men-
1. Women should be barefoot and pregnant.
2. An employer paying more of a salary to a man than his female employee when they do the same work.
3. Hiring practices.
4 Doesn't want the woman too pay on a date.
About the men from women-
1. Women wanting men to pay when dating.
2. Women wanting to enter mens locker rooms.
3. Female bosses demanding some hanky panky from their male employees or they would be fired.
I wouldn't worry about that one d-bailey of what you said.
Gotta disagree, ST... sexism is defining a person by their genitalia. If I say, "my hubby doesn't do dishes as much as I think is fair," that's a legitimate complaint. If I say, "*men* do this or that negative thing," that's sexism -- applying broad generalizations to people I've never even met, based on the fact that they happen to be penis-humans instead of vagina-humans.
It seems like you view sexism as a finite set of beliefs, rather than a complex underlying framework for relating to other humans in the world... that isn't how I would define it, and I think to do so underestimates the destructive power of the beast (against both men and women).
Your taking it to seriously in this instance.
Everything in this world has it's starting point from beliefs.
What if that person actually saw a whole bunch of women being bad drivers, saw that most men don't help around the house, that all men want their tv remote control near them when they watch tv?
They don't have a right to criticize them to state their opinion?
How is that not related to the framework of human relationships
in the world?
To me sexism is about discrimination, hurt feelings (a little bit but not alot), and control.
On which action would you feel discriminated against, hurt and feel like the other side is being a control freak?
1. If your boss denied you a raise because your a woman or when a man says women spend to much money shopping? Think about it.
Just posing a question: and this isnt rhetorical, I'm genuinely interested. Where are women getting paid less than men for the same job? I work in a corporation, so the salary for every set, named job is set in stone before they promote anyone to the position, which is just as often a man as a women. A huge percentage of jobs out there are chains or corporations and I know its policy to have set wages for each position regardless of who fills it. Which leaves me to believe that its small family owned businesses that are carrying on this practice... is that correct? Even jobs like teaching in a public school, you pay is pre-determined. I've worked for one privately owned business in my life, and I do seem to remember that they sort of "invented" the wages, but the pay for each position was still set before they hired someone, and I also know that the amount you were paid was relative to how long you had worked there, not your gender.
I've just never experienced that or even heard about it from anyone one I know, but you guys seem to talk about it like its common practice so I was wondering where its happening, if no where around me.
I *also* want to add (on the subject of male sexism) that I bought my boyfriend a pregnancy book for dads the other day because I felt bad that all the books I had are just from a womans perspective and I know he has a lot of interest and questions too. Well it ended up being a (male) sexist piece of junk, making lots of comments along the lines of "Obviously you'd rather stay home and watch the game, but you should offer to go to at least one doctors appointment." Seriously? He said he was genuinely offended reading it, which I can understand. Thats like a book telling me "Obviously you'd rather stay home and watch a soap opera, but...". As if a man would honestly be more interested in football than his family. Ick.
Just posing a question: and this isnt rhetorical, I'm genuinely interested. Where are women getting paid less than men for the same job? I work in a corporation, so the salary for every set, named job is set in stone before they promote anyone to the position, which is just as often a man as a women. A huge percentage of jobs out there are chains or corporations and I know its policy to have set wages for each position regardless of who fills it. Which leaves me to believe that its small family owned businesses that are carrying on this practice... is that correct? Even jobs like teaching in a public school, you pay is pre-determined. I've worked for one privately owned business in my life, and I do seem to remember that they sort of "invented" the wages, but the pay for each position was still set before they hired someone, and I also know that the amount you were paid was relative to how long you had worked there, not your gender.
I've just never experienced that or even heard about it from anyone one I know, but you guys seem to talk about it like its common practice so I was wondering where its happening, if no where around me.
It's not so much individual positions paying less initially, at the time of hire; it's that women are still expected to do most of the family stuff, so are more likely to have a non-continuous work history/ less years of experience in their field, and be paid accordingly. Also, b/c of socialization factors, women tend to be less likely to ask for raises, pursue promotions, or seek out competitive salaries... Say you have two people that graduate from law school in the same year, one male/ one female. They both start at the same salary, at the same firm. They both get married a couple years later, and start a family... She quits and stays home until their 3rd kid is in school; his wife does the same, so he stays on at his firm. Ten years from graduation, he has ten years of experience; she has two. They started with the same resources, and have the same family size... but widely divergent earning ability, based on social expectations of women vs men regarding family responsibilities.
So when studies are done on relative income of men and women in the US, given equivalent education & work duties performed, there is consistently a huge gap... because despite huge progress over the last 50 years, women are still expected to bear the lion's share of the burden of caring for children, caring for aging family members, managing the home, meal prep, etc etc etc, IN ADDITION to whatever career goals they have.
Just posing a question: and this isnt rhetorical, I'm genuinely interested. Where are women getting paid less than men for the same job? I work in a corporation, so the salary for every set, named job is set in stone before they promote anyone to the position, which is just as often a man as a women. A huge percentage of jobs out there are chains or corporations and I know its policy to have set wages for each position regardless of who fills it. Which leaves me to believe that its small family owned businesses that are carrying on this practice... is that correct? Even jobs like teaching in a public school, you pay is pre-determined. I've worked for one privately owned business in my life, and I do seem to remember that they sort of "invented" the wages, but the pay for each position was still set before they hired someone, and I also know that the amount you were paid was relative to how long you had worked there, not your gender.
I've just never experienced that or even heard about it from anyone one I know, but you guys seem to talk about it like its common practice so I was wondering where its happening, if no where around me.
I *also* want to add (on the subject of male sexism) that I bought my boyfriend a pregnancy book for dads the other day because I felt bad that all the books I had are just from a womans perspective and I know he has a lot of interest and questions too. Well it ended up being a (male) sexist piece of junk, making lots of comments along the lines of "Obviously you'd rather stay home and watch the game, but you should offer to go to at least one doctors appointment." Seriously? He said he was genuinely offended reading it, which I can understand. Thats like a book telling me "Obviously you'd rather stay home and watch a soap opera, but...". As if a man would honestly be more interested in football than his family. Ick.
This is one way.
You said it was set. On an application don't they say salary requirements?
When in an interview a manager who hires can decide to give a man more if he demands it or if it just suits the employers fancy.
In my opinion I believe an employer can give whatever they want when it cmes to salaries based on exp, skill or education. Even if it was just a little more I wouldn't care it's better to have a job but if it's alot more I would be complaining to my boss.
As for the pregnancy book in my opinion I don't think it was sexist. Sexism is between the sexes.
With that statement he was talking about your boyfriend his likes and dislikes. The only wrong thing the author did was presume wrong that he would've wanted to watch the game then go to a doctors appointment.
I'm sure all that is true, but how is that sexism? Women DO often choose to stay home with their families, but its exactly that, the woman's choice. Sounds like the employer is going to pay the man with ten years experience more than the woman with two, because he has more experience, not because of his gender. Right? If the man had stayed home and the woman pursued her career, the tables would be turned. Meaning that gender/sexism is irrelevant.
When it's as widespread as it is, we're talking about more than individual choice. The sexism component is that we raise daughters to expect/ settle for this situation, and our sons to expect it of their wives. Obviously there's a personal choice component to how each family handles these things; but the fact that women *so often* wind up with the short end of the stick reflects a bigger issue than I think you're seeing.
Bonus consideration: most single parents are women; AND earn less than male counterparts BECAUSE they were already expected to put their own career goals on hold for childrearing... so it's often a double-screw. And the way courts treat deadbeat dads/ gender discrimination in the workplace shows pretty clearly where our society's values are, regarding this stuff...
I'm not saying every woman's problem is society's fault, by ANY means; but I think it's counterproductive to imagine that social norms and mores that have worked against women for the last few hundred years, in the US, are not still turning that particular millstone. I think there's a tremendous amount of evidence otherwise, especially in the areas of earning power and double-standards for family responsibilities.
i'm not sure about whether the earning less due to societal expectations of motherhood really reflects on the employer than society as a whole (and honestly, i can't expect that, somehow without those societal norms, mothers wouldn't stay home to care for children more than fathers to at least some extent). However, I think there's more subtlety in the the salary/career advancement of women as opposed to men.
For instance, a man and a woman start at the same job, same pay. It involves some physical labor, and though the woman is capable of such, when it comes to staying late or doing extra physical tasks, it tends to be the man who is asked (not every one at work is needed for these things, of course). He is perceived as more physically capable (perhaps rightly so) and more able to withstand the extra stress of this labor. Come time for performance review and promotions, who has stayed late or gone beyond stated duties? The man, only because he was asked or expected due to his perceived physical skill. He winds up with better pay, position, and perception as a "team player" though either person may have been willing to stay. Hell, the woman might have been more positive about it.
There doesn't have to be a company policy about pay, it's about the people behind the management/labor decisions sometimes. Assuming that a man is better able to do a task because of his sex has ramifications down the line, even if those assumptions are correct at times or correct in general (e.g. men having better lifting ability, in general, but maybe the tasks that the job involves aren't that strenuous anyway). On top of that, sometimes men are asked to do the extra tasks because the person in charge is being polite/"kind" to the women, though it doesn't work out that way in the long run.
I do not think sexism is acceptable, but i think it is nearly unavoidable. We all know that the genetic make ups of men and women make them different. It does not make either sex incapable of earning a higher salary, washing the dishes, or baby-sitting; however, it does generally influence the behavior and emotions of each gender. I feel that women are more sensitive towards sexism, not because they are sensitive creatures, but because they have faced severe sexism for so long. Maybe they are generally more sensitive as well (i'm not sure about that one, but maybe it's true). Now as for men, they have many expectations from society, but i very very very rarely hear them complain (maybe it's just the men i hang out with), or maybe it is because they are too egotistical to complain about what bothers them, or maybe they just don't care.
Anyways, I am trying to say that i do not think sexism is still acceptable. In some countries it is more than acceptable, it is simply a part of life. But in America there are countless opportunities for women and many organizations to help fight sexism. As for the existence of sexism, I honestly cannot picture a society completely free of sexism. When there are two very different but compatible beings, there will always be stereotypical roles and sometimes even very rude jokes. I think that as women, we are very blessed to live in a society that is strong enough to face some of the major issues of sexism.
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