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Required Immunizations

Dragging this topic into the appropriate forum!!

To bring everyone up to speed:

1) Lots of places are starting to require H1N1 vaccines as well as standard flu shots.
2) When in crowded/confined spaces is this appropriate?
3) Is taking a cue from history justification for these actions?

Yay!

I wanted to comment on this:

Polio and meningitis is one thing, but this flu is another. It has been around for what? A year now? If it was such a crisis wouldn't things be a lot worse? I do not know a single person who has had any kind of flu recently... but I know people who are getting the shot. Its all fear marketing... these vaccines are a product and corporations will do their best to push them, we live in a society centered on profit. 30 million die a year from hunger but there are no alarm bells to be heard ringing everywhere. Why? Because there is no profit to be had feeding the poor.

You don't know anyone with the flu?  I know at least 5 people who have it right now, and 1 who has swine flu, and there are some other reported cases in my city. 

I don't understand your hunger comparison.  Feeding everyone who is hungry, every day, is somewhat of a more daunting task than providing inoculations.  It's not as if someone as a big bucket of money, and a checklist, and says, "OK, first thing we need to fix is hunger, then flu shots, then...."  It just doesn't work that way.  Like, risk people's health because.......other people are starving in the world?  The two things just aren't related.  It sucks all around.

I guess, if you don't believe that the flu can be serious, look at history like hanashi suggested.  There were points in history where the flu was a leading cause of death.  Actually, it still is:

Heart disease: 631,636
Cancer: 559,888
Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 137,119
Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 124,583
Accidents (unintentional injuries): 121,599
Diabetes: 72,449
Alzheimer's disease: 72,432
Influenza and Pneumonia: 56,326
Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 45,344
Septicemia: 34,234
(http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/FASTATS/lcod.htm)

Sure, there is a profit to be made from flu shots (as there is in everything else) but I do sincerely believe that vaccinations, historically, have been issued for the sake of public interest.  Which isn't to say that they are perfect. 

I did some research on the topic and many people believe the best option is a vaccine option but with a strong educational campaign about the vaccine as well as preventing infection.  I mean, that's pretty much what most people have.  Otherwise, I think healthcare professionals and other such people should be mandated.  And probably teachers too.  If I had to get it, I wouldn't put up a fight.  It's always my right to work in a different field if I feel that adamant about it.  (Just as its my right as a vegan to choose not to work at a steakhouse). 

I'm all for having rights about what you put in your body, but not when it can have widespread negative effects on others. 

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I think a lot of the lack of concern for this new flu come from a lack of knowledge.  The flu pandemic from 1918 to 1920 killed over 50 million people world wide, mostly young adults, not nearly as many kids and seniors.  The flu can and does kill every year, and the H1N1 is also a virus that affects the younger adult population harder than others.  Will it be  as bad? We don't know, but my kids are getting their shots when they become available.

I had the experience of having my 2nd child be put on a respirator at 4 weeks of age because he contracted some virus right out of the womb. He was hospitalized for 3 days.  Every year parents loose kids to illnesses that could have been avoided thru vaccinations.  Almost all vaccinations today do NOT contain heavy metals, or preservatives, so even if people are paranoid about vaccine reactions, they are minimal if at all.  Only very rarely does anyone have a severe reaction.  For me the benefit out weighs the risks.

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The World Health Organization declared the swine flu outbreak a pandemic earlier this year. The agency says more than 4,700 deaths attributed to H1N1 influenza have been reported worldwide.

*The swine flu has been around for about a year right?

"Lightning safety for people and for facilities is a global issue. There are many countries where lightning and lightning consequences are two or three times more frequent than in the USA. According to Holle (Royal Aeronautical Society, 2003), there are some 24,000 lightning deaths and 240,000 injuries annually worldwide."

So I should pump my body full of toxins in order to protect other people from a risk less than 1/4 of the risk of being hit by lightning?   ???

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I just feel like any death that could be prevented should be prevented. The members of society who interact with the most people, like healthcare workers, should be vaccinated. If there were a way to decrease the risk of lightning strikes to the people you see, wouldn't you want to do that?

Personally, I've already ben around a few people with H1N1, and I don't interact with many people. I've so far been healthy, so I won't be getting the shot. I don't think that this round of H1N1 is going to be as serious as when it was around in 1918-20. We know a lot more about microbiology and sanitation than we did back then. Also, being able to spread the word to keep washing your hands and stay home, etc. will probably have an effect.

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The World Health Organization declared the swine flu outbreak a pandemic earlier this year. The agency says more than 4,700 deaths attributed to H1N1 influenza have been reported worldwide.

*The swine flu has been around for about a year right?

"Lightning safety for people and for facilities is a global issue. There are many countries where lightning and lightning consequences are two or three times more frequent than in the USA. According to Holle (Royal Aeronautical Society, 2003), there are some 24,000 lightning deaths and 240,000 injuries annually worldwide."

So I should pump my body full of toxins in order to protect other people from a risk less than 1/4 of the risk of being hit by lightning?  ???

The pattern of flu (or any disease) cases is not constant throughout years. There could be far fewer H1N1 cases reported next year, or far more. Hence the point of vaccination.
The flu vaccine is not made of "toxins." Vaccines contain killed, attenuated, or pieces of the disease-causing organism, in order to prompt an immune response. Though the immune response against a pathogen may be seen as negative (especially since, sometimes, the immune system takes it too far, causing more harm than the pathogen itself. e.g., high fevers, septic shock, etc), this does not make the causative agent a toxin. The vaccine is more like a controlled allergen. Instead of causing harm, this immune response results in immunological "memory" that protects the immunized person against the disease if they are exposed to the same pathogen in the future. Even if you see the immune response as damaging regardless of circumstances, the vaccine will cause a far less severe response than the actual pathogen.
Yes, you may be fine and recover normally from H1N1. You may never contract it at all. However, vaccination is largely the reason why we're at such little risk for getting certain diseases. Also, vaccination is about population health in addition to individual health. Though you may recoop fine from any flu, you as a carrier of the flu can spread it to those more at risk - children, older persons, and immunocompromised persons. It's about protecting those around you, which is why so many healthcare workers *have* to get the vaccine.

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Again, comparing influenza to lightning strikes is like comparing influenza to hunger.  They just don't have anything to do with one another.

I second all that faunablues said.   A vaccine is not toxins!  And the reason communicable diseases are so much less frequent in the leading causes of death now than they were in the past is largely because of vaccines (and sanitation).  We owe a lot of our health to vaccines.

Also, edd, you used a global statistic to compare lightning and influenza when you should have used a national one.  You also didn't take into consideration that flus are seasonal.  It's plain to see that your risk of contracting the flu, during flu season, is higher than your risk of lightning strike.  Seriously, now.

Even so, it's stupid to under-manage one risk because there are other greater risks out there.

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I don't know, Edd made a valid point in that your chances of contracting this virus are likely very slim (although if you work in the healthcare industry I would imagine you would run a higher risk of contracting it.)

Personally, I don't trust flu vaccines. My mom never used to get the free ones at work when all of her co-workers did, and every year they would all turn up sick after a few days whereas she would be fine.

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Personally, I don't trust flu vaccines. My mom never used to get the free ones at work when all of her co-workers did, and every year they would all turn up sick after a few days whereas she would be fine.

Reactions are par for the course for vaccines.  Sometimes people have a larger immune response like faunablues discussed earlier.  But it is rare that the response is so huge as to cause serious harm.  Also, if they were sick after a few days, there is a chance they were already infected before they got it (incubation periods are what, 2 to 5 days?) or, they simply passed it to one another by virtue of working in the same office.  

I disagree that edd has a valid point at all--he quoted the deaths, worldwide, for swine flu during what?  Last year?  Since September 1, 2009, there have been 292 deaths in the US, and it continues to rise.  90% of cases are in young adults.  The other thing about virus transmission is that the spread can often be modeled exponentially or with similar curves.  Like, 2 people, then 4, then 8, etc.  Immunization is a way to damper that curve before it is out of control.

I would do some research about vaccines before using one piece of anecdotal evidence to make a decision.  Vaccine production methods are pretty tried and true at this point.  The concept is not exactly new.  They do not have huge doses of heavy metals or toxic adjuvants in them anymore like people claim (and autism links are unfounded).  Do some research.  

Again, it's about POPULATION health, as a whole.  Be thankful that we have vaccines.  I would consider them one of the things that has had the greatest effect on our quality of life over the past century.  We have effectively eradicated smallpox WORLDWIDE using vaccines.  That's nothing to sneeze at.   :P

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My point was to show how much of an over blow media sensation this is... my statistic are valid to the argument. There are far bigger problems to be worried about.

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You could make the same argument about polio, though. Why vaccinate kids against polio if the chances are so slim? Even at that, most cases of polio are just gastrointestinal upset. Only a small percentage lead to nervous system damage and partial paralysis. In addition, the polio vaccine is live attenuated, which means that there's a higher (though still small) chance that the virus could revert to its virulent form. A few kids vaccinated with the live/attenuated vaccine will actually get polio.

Again, public health. If they could vaccinate against lightning strikes they would. Especially if getting struck by lightning means that everyone around you has much higher chances of getting struck. In a particular region, every person has about an equal likelihood of getting struck. In a particular region, there are some people who are way more susceptible to the flu, and have a way worse reaction to it.

I see the lightning comparison as a food-for-thought about the hysteria initially surrounding swine flu, sort of like the statistic about planes being safer than cars. It goes against the common perception of the risk, so it's interesting. But for practical purposes, it's not really valid. Would that mean in areas where lightning storms and strikes are very rare, we should vaccinate? It seems like the choice of vaccination has nothing to do with the risk of this unrelated health problem. If it were one infectious, potentially fatal disease against another, I'd agree. Like if someone won't vaccinate against the flu, but wants a smallpox vaccine just because of the chance of bioterrorism - that doesn't make sense, considering the relative risk and the public needs of vaccination.

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I don't care what the virus is, I don't think it should ever be mandatory to have a vaccination.  It is your own body, and you should have the right to do with it as you please.  I'm sorry... the thought process of getting vaccinated to protect everyone else is bullshit...

if the vaccine works, then those who want it and get it, shouldn't get sick from someone who opts not to get the vaccine and catches the flu.

Logic.

I make the decision to say what goes in my body, and I take the risks that come along with it (the risk of getting the flu) and so do those who are in the same boat as myself...and if you so choose to not take that risk and get the vaccine, then why are you at all concerned about what I do?  

There's absolutely NO reason it needs to be required.  

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Well okay....Something to keep in mind with the statistics of H1N1 vs lightening strikes....

H1N1 hasn't been around a year, it was first identified in April. (Swine Flu Wiki) So it has only been 7 months since it has been around.

Flu season (in the US) is technically from October to May with the peak between late December and March. (Flu Facts.com) We haven't felt the full effect of this virus during our more vulnerable times.

Whenever I've gotten the flu shot, I wind up getting a little sick for 2-3 days immediately after. However, that is better (IMO) than being really sick for multiple weeks throughout the 'flu season'. For me, at least, it is worth the few days of mild misery.

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if the vaccine works, then those who want it and get it, shouldn't get sick from someone who opts not to get the vaccine and catches the flu.

Logic.

That's not logic.  First, that's incredibly selfish, as you are opting to let others take (what you perceive) as a risk so that you can ride on their coattails.  Secondly, what you are saying is only logic if you are the ONLY one in your population not to get vaccinated.  Unfortunately this is never the case.  There isn't even enough for everyone.  So, as a potential carrier, you risk infecting others--particularly those who cannot afford the vaccine, don't have insurance, have compromised immune systems, etc.   Yeah, there are a lot of people who WANT it, but it's unrealistic and ignorant to say that everyone who wants it can get it, or has gotten it in time.  Clinics are still going on right now!

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if the vaccine works, then those who want it and get it, shouldn't get sick from someone who opts not to get the vaccine and catches the flu.

Logic.

That's not logic.  First, that's incredibly selfish, as you are opting to let others take (what you perceive) as a risk so that you can ride on their coattails.  Secondly, what you are saying is only logic if you are the ONLY one in your population not to get vaccinated.  Unfortunately this is never the case.  There isn't even enough for everyone.  So, as a potential carrier, you risk infecting others--particularly those who cannot afford the vaccine, don't have insurance, have compromised immune systems, etc.   Yeah, there are a lot of people who WANT it, but it's unrealistic and ignorant to say that everyone who wants it can get it, or has gotten it in time.  Clinics are still going on right now!

I am sorry, but the term selfish doesn't really ring a bell in my vocabulary when it comes to my personal health vs. everyone else's.  I am not responsible for anyone elses' health, plain and simple, and I think the theory that I should be, is incredibly ridiculous.  

It still remains logic that those who choose not to take the risk and get the shot, will not get sick.  
And if this vaccination is going to be a mandatory thing, then it should be available to everyone regardless of insurance/cost.  We're talking about the legitimacy of having a mandatory immunization, am I right?  

Well it's only legitimate if it's made available and affordable to everyone, for one thing.  
And you still haven't addressed the point that it still isn't fair to tell anyone what to do with their own bodies/health (even if for the "greater good"-- which I still think is a silly way of thinking)

I personally don't agree with vaccinations... if you want one, feel free, but don't tell me what to do with MY body.  That's the bottom line.  If we want to talk about selfish, I'd say it's selfish of others to think that they should have say in my health and what I put into my body because of their own (or others')

But that's just how I see it.  You don't have to agree, but calling me selfish for not wanting to stick a bunch of crap into my veins was kind of unproductive and unnecessary.

and p.s. I'm not riding on anyone's coat tails, whether that's the way you see it or not... I'm personally not afraid of the virus to begin with, vaccination or not.  I don't think that other people getting vaccinated is going to keep me any more safe from the virus, than if no one would be vaccinated.  

I still think this whole thing is way over-hyped.  And I agree with whomever said earlier there are a lot bigger things to be worrying about.

oh, and one last thing... IF I would ever contract this virus, I WOULD be responsible enough to not subject myself to the public where I could infect anyone else... plain and simple.

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oh, and one last thing... IF I would ever contract this virus, I WOULD be responsible enough to not subject myself to the public where I could infect anyone else... plain and simple.

People are very contagious when they are carriers, before symptoms appear.  You might not know if you have it.  Then you pass it to someone susceptible.  But, oops, not your problem!  Oh well!

I am still not following your logic.  There are only two possible cases: if it is mandatory, then everyone is getting it, including you.  If it is not mandatory, then people who have the resources and desire are getting it.  In that case, the people choosing not to get it are risking the health of the people who can't get it.  Where does the situation you posed fall in these two cases?

I mean, it's pretty plain--people who choose not to get a vaccine are largely safeguarded by the other members of the population who choose to vaccinate themselves.  I stand by my statement that those people are riding the coattails of the rest.  If you think vaccines are so bad, then no one should be getting them.  But your right to not get them depends on other people "putting crap" into their veins.  That just seems messed up to me.

Children are required to have certain vaccines for school.  Period.  You don't get them, you don't come.  Or you home-school.  Healthcare workers should be required, period.  It's not that outrageous.  

eta:  It also bothers me that people in other countries are quite literally dying for vaccines that we take for granted.  And here we are talking about how they're over-hyped poison from big pharma.  Put it in perspective.

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Week before last, a friend of mine visited me. A few days later, he came down with the flu....the strain was never determined. I quarantined myself as soon as I found out and notified everyone I had contact with the days before. A few days later, I wound up getting a little sick, but the oregano oil/olive leaf, miso soup and garlic combination did the trick. I still didn't go anywhere public or really visited with anyone for a few days after I was feeling better. If the vaccine were available to me, I'd more than likely get it....I believe thus far there have been at least 20 confirmed cases of H1N1 in my city, and considering the majority of the jobs I've been applying for are service/education oriented, I'll be highly susceptible to such things.

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Yeah, kids here are sent home at the first sign of fever or anything flu-like.  But think of all the kids they might have infected by then!  Literally, knowing these kids, they could pass it to 100 others in a day.  I'm like, "sneeze into your elbows!"  It scares me to death to think of my kids going home and infecting their families and not being able to get adequate treatment.  For many of us, getting sick is just taking some time off work to recover, but that's not always an option.  

That's really awesome that you notified everyone you had been in contact with.  Good thinking!

I still think this whole thing is way over-hyped. 

What evidence do you have to support this?  Other than "more people go hungry" and "more people are struck by lightning every year"?  Everything I've read/seen in the media is statistics about flu incidence/death and information about the vaccine and flu prevention.  Do you have any examples of undue hype/misinformation about it?

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The World Health Organization declared the swine flu outbreak a pandemic earlier this year. The agency says more than 4,700 deaths attributed to H1N1 influenza have been reported worldwide.

*The swine flu has been around for about a year right?

"Lightning safety for people and for facilities is a global issue. There are many countries where lightning and lightning consequences are two or three times more frequent than in the USA. According to Holle (Royal Aeronautical Society, 2003), there are some 24,000 lightning deaths and 240,000 injuries annually worldwide."

So I should pump my body full of toxins in order to protect other people from a risk less than 1/4 of the risk of being hit by lightning?   ???

Exactly, the only reason they have to use fear tactics is becuase they have to scare you out of your right mind to do something that you wouldn't if you were in your right mind.....This is because of the lack of understanding of the human  body....Do some research on Pastuer and Antonie Beauchamp two French scientist....One was a lier and the other was the greatest scientist we've never heard of....The truth of the matter is that virus' and bacteria only infected body's that are full of toxins and thereby have something for the bacteria and virus' to break down and decompose....This is why everyone is not infected when someone in a group gets sick....I'll put it like this a bacteria or a virus has nothing to break down or live on in a clean well circulating body....Toxins accumilate and the body uses virus's and bacteria to assist it in the breaking down and removal of toxins....If we learn to allow our body's time to detox on a regular basis then we would not get sick at all period.....Then we would realize tht disease and sickness is not natural and means that you are doing something wrong.....It's no different than you leaving garbage in the corner of your house and allowing it to accumilate over time...would come to decompose it and  clean up the waste....Toxins in your body that the body cant get out on its own need help from the clean up crew.... Once you understand that you have more bacteria iand virus' in your body than you do cells you will realize they are needed and only used when the body needs help to detoxify....Your body can kill a virua or a bacteria anytimeit needs to....If there is cleaning to be done it will not....By the way you dont catch bacteria or virus' the body creates them when it needs them depending on the PH balance.....Everything in this world has a purpose....

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Again, childofzion, all of these ideas your spouting sound impressive, but we really need to know the sources you're getting this info from, so we can properly judge for ourselves if we agree or not. Until you do that, I'm afraid you won't make any converts.

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