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Required Immunizations

Dragging this topic into the appropriate forum!!

To bring everyone up to speed:

1) Lots of places are starting to require H1N1 vaccines as well as standard flu shots.
2) When in crowded/confined spaces is this appropriate?
3) Is taking a cue from history justification for these actions?

Hmm :/ I would suggest a book on cancer genetics and evolutionary genetics, but I'm afraid you wouldn't trust the source of this information.
I think that, while there is a profit motivation for some of these groups that conduct studies, generally the information and mechanisms are correct. Doctors who practice holistic medicine go through med school/osteopath school too, it's just about how you interpret all the information and what the solution for the disease process is.

Yep, in the end it's what you choose to believe....Right doctors are usually doctors before they get tired of treating symptoms instead of the cause which ensures the patient degenerates and needs more and more medicatition as it causese more disease in the body over time.....If the medical industry was looking for any cures they would have found them already....I don't know of one disease they have cured since they have been around. If that sounds right to you then what can you say.....

Just a few clarifications.

Cured vs. eliminated.  Very different things.  However, there are diseases that have been largely eliminated: small pox is one big example.  Penetration into the developing world is difficult due to structural problems, though.  However, Haemophilus influenzae B, Polio, Measles (prior to the anti-vax movement), pertussis, etc. have all been essentially eliminated in the developed world.

If you get syphilis, you can be cured with Penicillin.  If you get tuberculosis, you can take isoniazid, rifampin, pyrazinamide, and ethambutol.  Plenty of "cures" are out there.  You don't have to look very hard.

Even difficult to treat idiopathic disease can be well-managed, e.g. Wegener's Granulomatosis.

The decrease in polio and other diseases has nothing to do with vaccines....You were just fooled into thinking they did....
y

"According to the British Association for the Advancement of Science, childhood diseases decreased 90% between 1850 and 1940, paralleling improved sanitation and hygienic practices, well before mandatory vaccination programs. Infectious disease deaths in the U.S. and England declined steadily by an average of about 80% during this century (measles mortality declined over 97%) prior to vaccinations".

Also, there were countries that refused the vaccinations and they saw the same decrease not cause of vaccines.....

"European countries that refused immunization for small pox and polio saw the epidemics end along with those countries that mandated it. (In fact, both small pox and polio immunization campaigns were followed initially by significant disease incidence increases; during smallpox vaccination campaigns, other infectious diseases continued their declines in the absence of vaccines. In England and Wales, smallpox disease and vaccination rates eventually declined simultaneously over a period of several decades".

Credit given to vaccinations for our current disease incidence has simply been grossly exaggerated, if not outright misplaced. People are crediting poisinous drugs for decline in disease when it can all be traced back to to improved standard of hygiene and diet....

Penicillin may cure sphylis but it's not the cause....Until you realize why and how disease developes in the body you will remain a victim to these lies....

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Hmm :/ I would suggest a book on cancer genetics and evolutionary genetics, but I'm afraid you wouldn't trust the source of this information.
I think that, while there is a profit motivation for some of these groups that conduct studies, generally the information and mechanisms are correct. Doctors who practice holistic medicine go through med school/osteopath school too, it's just about how you interpret all the information and what the solution for the disease process is.

Yep, in the end it's what you choose to believe....Right doctors are usually doctors before they get tired of treating symptoms instead of the cause which ensures the patient degenerates and needs more and more medicatition as it causese more disease in the body over time.....If the medical industry was looking for any cures they would have found them already....I don't know of one disease they have cured since they have been around. If that sounds right to you then what can you say.....

Just a few clarifications.

Cured vs. eliminated.  Very different things.  However, there are diseases that have been largely eliminated: small pox is one big example.  Penetration into the developing world is difficult due to structural problems, though.  However, Haemophilus influenzae B, Polio, Measles (prior to the anti-vax movement), pertussis, etc. have all been essentially eliminated in the developed world.

If you get syphilis, you can be cured with Penicillin.  If you get tuberculosis, you can take isoniazid, rifampin, pyrazinamide, and ethambutol.  Plenty of "cures" are out there.  You don't have to look very hard.

Even difficult to treat idiopathic disease can be well-managed, e.g. Wegener's Granulomatosis.

The decrease in polio and other diseases has nothing to do with vaccines....You were just fooled into thinking they did....
y

"According to the British Association for the Advancement of Science, childhood diseases decreased 90% between 1850 and 1940, paralleling improved sanitation and hygienic practices, well before mandatory vaccination programs. Infectious disease deaths in the U.S. and England declined steadily by an average of about 80% during this century (measles mortality declined over 97%) prior to vaccinations".

Also, there were countries that refused the vaccinations and they saw the same decrease not cause of vaccines.....

"European countries that refused immunization for small pox and polio saw the epidemics end along with those countries that mandated it. (In fact, both small pox and polio immunization campaigns were followed initially by significant disease incidence increases; during smallpox vaccination campaigns, other infectious diseases continued their declines in the absence of vaccines. In England and Wales, smallpox disease and vaccination rates eventually declined simultaneously over a period of several decades".

Credit given to vaccinations for our current disease incidence has simply been grossly exaggerated, if not outright misplaced. People are crediting poisinous drugs for decline in disease when it can all be traced back to to improved standard of hygiene and diet....

Penicillin may cure sphylis but it's not the cause....Until you realize why and how disease developes in the body you will remain a victim to these lies....

Interesting take on it.

Sanitation and hygiene has a lot to do with controlling of infectious agents.  Agree with you there.

However, in the late 70's, late 80's... why did the rate of pertussis (whooping cough) increase 100-fold in countries that stopped pertussis vaccination compared to countries that didn't?

You're right.  Vaccination in itself didn't eliminate small pox and some of these other disease.  However, you're not seeing the big picture.  Treating everyone infected and/or colonized did the rest.  Treating all the carriers prevents the dissemination of disease by one means, and vaccinating everyone else prevents it in another way.  This results in the elimination of a specific disease.  Now, almost nobody is vaccinated for small pox, because it just isn't around to infect anyone.

How exactly does syphilis develop then?  I was under the impression that the invasion of Treponema pallidum caused painless lesions followed by condyloma lata followed by syphilitic aortitis or neurosyphilis.

If you can tell me a way to cure Tuberculosis without drugs, then we'd probably be able to split a Nobel prize.

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How about rabies? I know it hasn't been eliminated of course, but I see no effective means of prevention other than vaccination and knowing what a rabid animal looks like. I doubt that 100% of the animals (wild animals, domesticated, humans) who are bitten all have enough toxins in their bodies to cause them to be susceptible.

General health status might have a big impact on how susceptible one is to certain diseases (or how fast/far they progress), but I don't think that can be generalized to all diseases.

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How about rabies? I know it hasn't been eliminated of course, but I see no effective means of prevention other than vaccination and knowing what a rabid animal looks like. I doubt that 100% of the animals (wild animals, domesticated, humans) who are bitten all have enough toxins in their bodies to cause them to be susceptible.

General health status might have a big impact on how susceptible one is to certain diseases (or how fast/far they progress), but I don't think that can be generalized to all diseases.

fb. don't be silly.  if you don't fill your body with toxins, then you can get bitten by a rabid raccoon 100 times and you will never get rabies.   ::) 

Honestly the misinformation in this thread is pretty terrifying.

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I'm getting my H1N1 vaccine today so :P

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I'm getting my H1N1 vaccine today so :P

DON'T DO THAT IT CAUSES AIDS

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I'm getting my H1N1 vaccine today so :P

Jealous!  8)

OMG DON'T DO IT IT'S PUTTING POISON IN YOUR VEINSSSSSS.

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How about rabies? I know it hasn't been eliminated of course, but I see no effective means of prevention other than vaccination and knowing what a rabid animal looks like. I doubt that 100% of the animals (wild animals, domesticated, humans) who are bitten all have enough toxins in their bodies to cause them to be susceptible.

General health status might have a big impact on how susceptible one is to certain diseases (or how fast/far they progress), but I don't think that can be generalized to all diseases.

Comorbidities can alter the immune response.  For example, being infected with something like tuberculosis, which produces a granulomatous response mediated by Th1 cells, then the IFN-gamma produced down regulates the development of a Th2 response, which would be important in mounting an effective response to something like Schistosomiasis.

Regarding rabies, governments have talked about dropping baited vaccines into the wild to try to immunize wild animals and decrease the spread of rabies.

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How about rabies? I know it hasn't been eliminated of course, but I see no effective means of prevention other than vaccination and knowing what a rabid animal looks like. I doubt that 100% of the animals (wild animals, domesticated, humans) who are bitten all have enough toxins in their bodies to cause them to be susceptible.

General health status might have a big impact on how susceptible one is to certain diseases (or how fast/far they progress), but I don't think that can be generalized to all diseases.

Comorbidities can alter the immune response.  For example, being infected with something like tuberculosis, which produces a granulomatous response mediated by Th1 cells, then the IFN-gamma produced down regulates the development of a Th2 response, which would be important in mounting an effective response to something like Schistosomiasis.

Regarding rabies, governments have talked about dropping baited vaccines into the wild to try to immunize wild animals and decrease the spread of rabies.

Yeah, I know, it was more of a response to childofzion. The amount of vaccine needed to vaccinate wildlife is a bit staggering though... and at least when I got my vaccine (a few months ago), there was a shortage of rabies vx. But this doesn't seem to be the case for dog/cat vaccines :/ (not sure how they are different) so maybe we'd actually be able to produce enough.

Re: comorbidities, childofzion (i think) was taking the position that there are really no infectious diseases, and that they sponatenously generate from the host's tissue, due to poor nutritional status or high levels of toxins or something of the like. So, comorbidity wouldn't really be an explanation in that case, since apparently the original disease is self-derived.

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I'm getting my H1N1 vaccine today so :P

DON'T DO THAT IT CAUSES AIDS

LOL

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My arm hurts.....I guess that's toxins for ya :(

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My arm hurts.....I guess that's toxins for ya :(

It's only a matter of hours before it spreads to your brain.

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My arm hurts.....I guess that's toxins for ya :(

It's only a matter of hours before it spreads to your brain.

Bwaaaaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiinssssss....

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My arm hurts.....I guess that's toxins for ya :(

It's only a matter of hours before it spreads to your brain.

Bwaaaaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiinssssss....

I <3 VegWeb

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Hmm :/ I would suggest a book on cancer genetics and evolutionary genetics, but I'm afraid you wouldn't trust the source of this information.
I think that, while there is a profit motivation for some of these groups that conduct studies, generally the information and mechanisms are correct. Doctors who practice holistic medicine go through med school/osteopath school too, it's just about how you interpret all the information and what the solution for the disease process is.

Yep, in the end it's what you choose to believe....Right doctors are usually doctors before they get tired of treating symptoms instead of the cause which ensures the patient degenerates and needs more and more medicatition as it causese more disease in the body over time.....If the medical industry was looking for any cures they would have found them already....I don't know of one disease they have cured since they have been around. If that sounds right to you then what can you say.....

Just a few clarifications.

Cured vs. eliminated.  Very different things.  However, there are diseases that have been largely eliminated: small pox is one big example.  Penetration into the developing world is difficult due to structural problems, though.  However, Haemophilus influenzae B, Polio, Measles (prior to the anti-vax movement), pertussis, etc. have all been essentially eliminated in the developed world.

If you get syphilis, you can be cured with Penicillin.  If you get tuberculosis, you can take isoniazid, rifampin, pyrazinamide, and ethambutol.  Plenty of "cures" are out there.  You don't have to look very hard.

Even difficult to treat idiopathic disease can be well-managed, e.g. Wegener's Granulomatosis.

The decrease in polio and other diseases has nothing to do with vaccines....You were just fooled into thinking they did....
y

"According to the British Association for the Advancement of Science, childhood diseases decreased 90% between 1850 and 1940, paralleling improved sanitation and hygienic practices, well before mandatory vaccination programs. Infectious disease deaths in the U.S. and England declined steadily by an average of about 80% during this century (measles mortality declined over 97%) prior to vaccinations".

Also, there were countries that refused the vaccinations and they saw the same decrease not cause of vaccines.....

"European countries that refused immunization for small pox and polio saw the epidemics end along with those countries that mandated it. (In fact, both small pox and polio immunization campaigns were followed initially by significant disease incidence increases; during smallpox vaccination campaigns, other infectious diseases continued their declines in the absence of vaccines. In England and Wales, smallpox disease and vaccination rates eventually declined simultaneously over a period of several decades".

Credit given to vaccinations for our current disease incidence has simply been grossly exaggerated, if not outright misplaced. People are crediting poisinous drugs for decline in disease when it can all be traced back to to improved standard of hygiene and diet....

Penicillin may cure sphylis but it's not the cause....Until you realize why and how disease developes in the body you will remain a victim to these lies....

Interesting take on it.

Sanitation and hygiene has a lot to do with controlling of infectious agents.  Agree with you there.

However, in the late 70's, late 80's... why did the rate of pertussis (whooping cough) increase 100-fold in countries that stopped pertussis vaccination compared to countries that didn't?

You're right.  Vaccination in itself didn't eliminate small pox and some of these other disease.  However, you're not seeing the big picture.  Treating everyone infected and/or colonized did the rest.  Treating all the carriers prevents the dissemination of disease by one means, and vaccinating everyone else prevents it in another way.  This results in the elimination of a specific disease.  Now, almost nobody is vaccinated for small pox, because it just isn't around to infect anyone.

How exactly does syphilis develop then?  I was under the impression that the invasion of Treponema pallidum caused painless lesions followed by condyloma lata followed by syphilitic aortitis or neurosyphilis.

If you can tell me a way to cure Tuberculosis without drugs, then we'd probably be able to split a Nobel prize.

There are only 3 causes of dis-ease in the body: accumulation of toxins, nutritional deficiencies, and emotional stress. There is nothing else. Aside from physical harm (gun shot wound, car wreck, ect…)

First and foremost you have to understand that germs do not cause diseases at all period… no matter what those nice people in the white lab coats with those cute titles attached to their names said.

You would have to understand that germs do not and cannot attack healthy tissue. They are scavengers and there only job is to reduce waste (Toxins). This is why your stool is full of them as well as your garbage and sewers. Germs are purifying agents and are beneficial. If they were what you all believe they are they would surely have consumed our skin right before our eyes by now....

A clean well circulating body has nothing for a germ to infect (decompose)….I myself allow my body time to detox and have not been sick in nearly 4 years and counting…..This is not a coincidence, I understand that when you ingest toxins faster than you release them the body will employ germs to help eliminate the waste.  What I’m trying to say is that the only way the body would create these germs in the body or allow foreign invaders inside the body is if there is a need for cleaning or decomposing waste or dead organic matter….This will happen only when the toxins in the body reach a level that threatens the entire life of the body….Infection is another way of saying the body is trying to avoid suffocatiing in its own waste....

Now I have a question to for you….If germs can attack and kill healthy tissues, organs, and organisms, wouldn’t you think we would have all been destroyed by now???? We breathe them in every hour of the day and there are more germs in our body than there are cells.

Oh by the way, if the world followed the true laws of creation there would be no such thing as a nobel prize….There wouldn’t be a need to continue to claim success for discovering  new diseases (symptoms) that our foolish life styles cause in the first place. As though, giving a symptom a name means you have any real understanding of it.....

None of these diseases can affect or infect a person that keeps a clean well circulating body. As germs only attached themselves to worn out, decaying, or dead tissues and cells. So the cure is in the cause….stop the cause and you have found the cure…..It’s that simple but our egos, ignorance, and fears would never allow us to see it….The germs you speak of are the result not the cause…..This is why some bugs found in one persons gut can cause pain and discomfort and the same bug in another’s wont cause any pain at all…..why because there have to be tissues that need to be decomposed…..

If germs were the cause of disease we would all be victims of one or more germs at all times…..They are every where….

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There are only 3 causes of dis-ease in the body: accumulation of toxins, nutritional deficiencies, and emotional stress. There is nothing else. Aside from physical harm (gun shot wound, car wreck, ect…)

I disagree.  Those 3 can contribute to disease.  However... I refer you to the mnemonic "VINDICATE"

Vascular
Infectious
Neoplasm
Drug
Iatrogenic
Congenital
Anatomic
Trauma
Environmental

Quote:
First and foremost you have to understand that germs do not cause diseases at all period… no matter what those nice people in the white lab coats with those cute titles attached to their names said.

You would have to understand that germs do not and cannot attack healthy tissue. They are scavengers and there only job is to reduce waste (Toxins). This is why your stool is full of them as well as your garbage and sewers. Germs are purifying agents and are beneficial. If they were what you all believe they are they would surely have consumed our skin right before our eyes by now....

This is both true and not true.  Intact healthy skin is one of the best defenses against bacteria, viruses, fungi, parasites, etc.

You are also correct that the human body is covered in bacteria and yeast.  Candida and staphylococcus epidermidis cover our bodies.  Staphylococcus Aureus colonizes many peoples' nasopharynx along with neisseria meningitidis and streptococcus pneumoniae.  In the bowel, there are bacteroides fragilis, eschericia coli, clostridium difficile, etc.  However, these bacteria and fungi(Candida) have developed commensal relationships with us, and the body has developed tolerogenic processes to reduce the attack on them.

In the gut, there's a great deal of retinoic acid, which increases the production of regulatory T-cells, which dampen the immune response to these bacteria.  The bacteria do quite a bit to help us, e.g.they produce vitamin K.  As long as they stay where they're supposed to stay, then things are all good.

The fact of the matter is that you're splitting all bacteria into either completely good or completely bad.  The reality is that there's a range.

However, the presence of bacteria in an inappropriate place is one of the many causes of disease.  E. Coli in the blood stream is not good.

Quote:
A clean well circulating body has nothing for a germ to infect (decompose)….I myself allow my body time to detox and have not been sick in nearly 4 years and counting…..This is not a coincidence, I understand that when you ingest toxins faster than you release them the body will employ germs to help eliminate the waste.  What I’m trying to say is that the only way the body would create these germs in the body or allow foreign invaders inside the body is if there is a need for cleaning or decomposing waste or dead organic matter….This will happen only when the toxins in the body reach a level that threatens the entire life of the body….Infection is another way of saying the body is trying to avoid suffocatiing in its own waste....

Macrophages ingest apoptotic and necrotic bodies.  While what you say makes some sort of sense, it's not true.

Quote:
Now I have a question to for you….If germs can attack and kill healthy tissues, organs, and organisms, wouldn’t you think we would have all been destroyed by now???? We breathe them in every hour of the day and there are more germs in our body than there are cells.

Absolutely not.  You're splitting.  Not all "germs" are created equal.  Many bacteria are harmless... especially if they stay where they're supposed to stay.

While we have more germs on our bodies than cells, there is a commensal relationship.  Some germs will always produce disease, though.  Shigella is one example.

Some "germs" are good, some "germs" are neutral, some "germs" are bad.

Quote:
Oh by the way, if the world followed the true laws of creation there would be no such thing as a nobel prize….There wouldn’t be a need to continue to claim success for discovering  new diseases (symptoms) that our foolish life styles cause in the first place. As though, giving a symptom a name means you have any real understanding of it.....

None of these diseases can affect or infect a person that keeps a clean well circulating body. As germs only attached themselves to worn out, decaying, or dead tissues and cells. So the cure is in the cause….stop the cause and you have found the cure…..It’s that simple but our egos, ignorance, and fears would never allow us to see it….The germs you speak of are the result not the cause…..This is why some bugs found in one persons gut can cause pain and discomfort and the same bug in another’s wont cause any pain at all…..why because there have to be tissues that need to be decomposed…..

If germs were the cause of disease we would all be victims of one or more germs at all times…..They are every where….

Again with the splitting!  Some of the bacteria have neutral effect!

The fact that we're covered in bacteria and fungi does not disprove that some "germs" cause disease.

"Disease usually results from inconclusive negotiations for symbiosis, an overstepping of the line by one side, a biologic misinterpretation of borders"
-Lewis Thomas, Germs 1974

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FTR, I have never de-toxed and I have not been sick in 4 years and counting. Before that incident four years ago (flu) I hadn't been sick in another 4 years prior.

Sometimes anecdotal evidence is not the best, especially since, as an adult, you're probably going to get sick less often than when you were a child. Also, there is individual variation in terms of resistance, and sure, nutritional status does help.

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Yeah, I've gotten 1 cold since, like, 11th grade.  That was 6 years ago.  Only other complication I've had was bad allergies from moving to a new area.  I am in no way de-toxed, or interested in detoxing, but I am a good eater.  Only vegan for the last 2 years of the 6.

It really bothers me when people say, "When I was young I used to get so many colds and infections, blah blah blah blah blah!  Now I made xyz lifestyle change and I never get sick!"  No, that's probably because of immunity due to exposure.  You can't jump to causation from that correlation.  Good point, fb.

Again, let's inject you with rabies or hepatitis C or HIV and see if you can fight it off in your purified state.  Since those viruses don't actually cause disease.  And then I'll say that YOU deserve the Nobel Prize, childofzion.

Honestly this is one of the bizarrest discussions I have ever seen on vegweb.  

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Had a feeling its health would degrade to where it would be susceptible to bacterial infection. Which is why I moved it from the Sink, since we can't confirm everyone is immunized/fully detoxed

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LMAO

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