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Required Immunizations

Dragging this topic into the appropriate forum!!

To bring everyone up to speed:

1) Lots of places are starting to require H1N1 vaccines as well as standard flu shots.
2) When in crowded/confined spaces is this appropriate?
3) Is taking a cue from history justification for these actions?

I don't think the body uses viruses to break down toxins, childofzion.  Bacteria, definitely.
And what you are saying about people never getting sick if we detox on your irregular basis is just not accurate and downright disrespectful.  Tell that to everyone in the world suffering from AIDS, hepatitis, pneumonia, malaria........Everyone is subject to illness--it's part of life.  Be realistic!  That's awfully naive.  

Viruses and bacteria attack all kinds of cells in your system--they can attack organ tissue, neural cells, blood cells, anything.....your claim that pathogens thrive only through breaking down toxins is just false.  HIV is an example--it NEEDS to infect human T cells--toxins will not deter it!  And many CREATE toxins!  Botulism is an example.  Some basic biology background reading will tell you that.

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Update on where we're at with the flu situation:

US swine flu deaths surpass 1,000

CDC's vaccine supply status

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Again, childofzion, all of these ideas your spouting sound impressive, but we really need to know the sources you're getting this info from, so we can properly judge for ourselves if we agree or not. Until you do that, I'm afraid you won't make any converts.

Sure I did....you can google pastuer vs beauchamp that will give you plenty of information of how Pastuer was credited with the Germ Theory and admitted it was wrong on his death bed......Take a look for yourself....Although, everthing I'm speaking of I live this and this is not just something I think can happen....It will be four years in December since the last time I was sick....

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Tell that to everyone in the world suffering from AIDS, hepatitis, pneumonia, malaria........Everyone is subject to illness--it's part of life.  Be realistic!  That's awfully naive. 

Viruses and bacteria attack all kinds of cells in your system--they can attack organ tissue, neural cells, blood cells, anything.....your claim that pathogens thrive only through breaking down toxins is just false.  HIV is an example--it NEEDS to infect human T cells--toxins will not deter it!  And many CREATE toxins!  Botulism is an example.  Some basic biology background reading will tell you that.

First of all the only thing that is disrespectful is the fact that you indirectly called me a liar without even asking me how I accomplished such a thing and then testing it first....Now then, I have not been sick in more than 4 years and the reason is because I give my body adequate time to detoxify itself by not eating in between meals and fasting weekly(among other things) First of all AIDS is not one disease it's many and it's characterized as the body turning on itself and attacking itself.....Cancer is and autoimmune disorder as well is lupus, hepatitus, and many others....The problem is that it's all being interpreted wrong by doctors....They claim the body is attacking it's own liver cells or tissues when that's not true.....The cells are so saturated with toxins that the body is only doing what it must to survive attempting to decompose dead tissue and turn over old and injured cells to remove them along with the toxins they have suffocated in....Pneumonia only results when the fever is reduced during the healing response(flu) causing the virus to over run the lungs this only results in death when the lungs are so full of toxins that the virus breaks down too much tissue causing death.....The body creates a fever to stop the virus from continueing to replicate....If what you say about bacteria and virus' attacking organ tissues,cells, blood cells was completely true we would all be dead by now.....We have more pathogens in our body than we have cells the cells would be gone long ago....You dont understand that the bacteria,fungus, and or virus only attack cells that are worn out and due to be turned over.....Not only that we breath in all kinds of bacteria and virus' just about every hour of the day but we arent getting sick every other week unless we are extremely toxic....The body makes the calls and the bacteria and virus are only created once the boyd reaches its tolerance level of toxins....once this happens you are told you are sick but its not true the sickness is your lifesyle....If you eat some spoiled food (toxic)and you threw it up what do you think the sickness was(right it was the bad food) the throwing up or diahrea that followed is the body's healing response but we hav been so screwed up we call it being sick....This is no different when your body employs a bacteria or virus to clean up a particular part of the body....You have cold sweats, diahrea,vomintting,coughing,and you feel tired because the body is working over time to get the sickness out....You think it's wise to stop that????Of course not........To say that bacteria and virus' cause disease is like saying that flies cause garbage its the exact opposite....The toxins we overload our body with force the body to created bacteria and virus' to assist it in removing waste....one of the few causes of disese.....The medical industry knows this but they dont wont you to know.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJiTStZtrlE&feature=related

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I just want to throw it out there: once people did think that flies did come from rotting meat, until adequate sanitation measures allowed the demonstration that they don't. Bacteria and viruses don't come from flesh either. Among many other things, bacteria have a very different genome from eukaryotes (includes humans), and a different set of enzymes in general.
One of the theories of how viruses originated, however, is that they came from transposons. Transposons are pieces of DNA that are capable of "jumping" out of a gene and re-inserting themselves elsewhere (which is often what viral DNA will do). However, this supposedly occurred millions of years ago, not to each person who has a disease.
Also, while lupus is an autoimmune disease, cancer is not. Autoimmune diseases involve the individual's immune system attacking the host tissues. In cancer, a single cell fails to kill itself when it is supposed to, and combined with other DNA errors, grows and multiplies continuously. The immune system normally clears out these types of growth, but sometimes this fails (either because the immune system is not faring so well or because the errors in the DNA of the cancer cells allows them to avoid death by the immune system). AIDS is likewise a failure of the immune system, not autoimmune in nature.

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I don't know much about the whole vaccination process in the US (or anywhere else that isn't the UK), but in the UK we have certain vaccines that are recommended for children but they are not mandatory - if the kids are not vaccinated then they can still go to school.

In the UK there is a recommended MMR (measles, mumps, rubella) vaccine that is given at about 13months and then again at 3 to 5 years.  There was a big scare based on a single poorly carried out study in the 90s (I think) - the scare was that the MMR vaccine could cause autism.  Becasue of this scare the uptake of the MMR vaccin went way way down.  Generally a 70% uptake is needed in a population to provide cover to the general population.  The uptake of MMR went below this in many areas and so we had an increase in measles in those areas.  This included children who were unable to get the MMR jab due to medical reasons (in the UK vaccines are free to kids).
Therefore, by parents deciding not to get their children vaccinated it meant that children who COULD NOT get vaccinated ended up getting a preventable disease.
So saying that by choosing not to get vaccinated only affects yourself is not true.  Yes, vaccinations are there to protect the individual, but they are also there to protect the population as a whole.  By not getting a vaccine you are putting yourself and other people at risk.  It is not just your health.

In the UK we are just rolling out the H1N1 jab with healthcare workers as part of the first line.  It is not mandatory even for healthcare workers, but it is strongly recommended.  So I will be getting my H1N1 jab - I don't want to put my patients at risk and working in the emergency unit in a hospital I would be putting lots of vulnerable patients at risk if I don't get the jab.
And for the people who say that swine flu is only mild - yes in many cases it is, but I have seen patients with it who have been very sicck - and some of these are young adults with no previous medical background.  I don't want to et that sick, so for my own health I would want the H1N1 vaccine anyway.

I think that it should be mandatory for healthcare workers to get the H1N1 jab, but I know a lot of my colleagues have said that they don't want it and so won't get it.  To me that's a bit irresponsible.

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Generally a 70% uptake is needed in a population to provide cover to the general population. 

Thank you, I was looking for that figure!  And your example about measles is just the type of thing I was talking about.

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I think it's about 70% anyway - it's a while since I studied vaccinations (about 9years ago), so this is just from memory.

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I agree about the importance of vaccinations, especially the H1N1 and the regular influenza vaccine this season particularly.  I work in health care with direct patient care in a hospital and my unit is one of the designated H1N1 units so I have already gotten both vaccines to protect my patients and my coworkers.  We've already had one employee later confirmed to have H1N1 that came to work-everyone that came in contact with her within 1 ft. for more than 3 secs had to be treated with flu prophylactic -both patients and employees. 

However, despite my personal opinion, I do not think that mandatory immunization  will ever happen, nor do I think it should.  Some people cannot be vaccinated for religious/cultural reasons, some for allergic reasons, or others for health reasons.  In my opinion at least, this is ok, even for those like some of the posters on this thread who would be eligible for the vaccine, but choose not to for their own personal reasons-I can respect that even if I don't agree with the logic.  This is why the concept of "herd immunity," which is the name for the idea that many have already touched on is so important.  Fortunately not everyone does need to get vaccinated to protect the entire herd...although unfortunately this phenomenon  isn't fail proof.

My hospital does not require the vaccination for it's employees either.  Rather, they put a policy in place that if you choose not to be vaccinated you will be required to wear a mask anytime you are within 3 feet of a patient for the flu season duration.  Again, they know that they can't require vaccines for the reasons above, so they provide an alternative.  This is the first year that flu vaccination or masking has been required.  I think that the masking is important if one chooses not to get vaccinated because they are creating a much greater risk of infecting an immune compromised patient, but I can't help but see this almost as more of a force tactic by hospital officials, because if patient safety were the true priority with the vaccination vs. masking requirement, we'd ALL be wearing masks anytime we were within x feet of another person, because even if vaccinated, although our chances of getting/transmitting the flu are significantly less, we could still contract it, and we are not protected from all strains, and thus still pose of risk of infecting others.

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I just want to throw it out there: once people did think that flies did come from rotting meat, until adequate sanitation measures allowed the demonstration that they don't. Bacteria and viruses don't come from flesh either. Among many other things, bacteria have a very different genome from eukaryotes (includes humans), and a different set of enzymes in general.
One of the theories of how viruses originated, however, is that they came from transposons. Transposons are pieces of DNA that are capable of "jumping" out of a gene and re-inserting themselves elsewhere (which is often what viral DNA will do). However, this supposedly occurred millions of years ago, not to each person who has a disease.
Also, while lupus is an autoimmune disease, cancer is not. Autoimmune diseases involve the individual's immune system attacking the host tissues. In cancer, a single cell fails to kill itself when it is supposed to, and combined with other DNA errors, grows and multiplies continuously. The immune system normally clears out these types of growth, but sometimes this fails (either because the immune system is not faring so well or because the errors in the DNA of the cancer cells allows them to avoid death by the immune system). AIDS is likewise a failure of the immune system, not autoimmune in nature.

If you want to prove it to yourself....Leave some uncooked pork on your counter top overnight....When you wake it will have maggots in it....The maggots don't crawl under your door they grow out of the meat once it reaches the condition that provides maggots with food to grow(spoiled food,  waste or toxins whichever you prefer to call it). Once fully nurtrured they grow into adult flies. You don't need a lab to prove this one to be true buddy....The best way to find out truth is to test out the things you are being told....Otherwise you're just taking people's word for it whether they be "experts" or not.....As for cancer the immune system doesn’t fail to do anything. Cancer is nothing more than a survival attempt by the body. Trying to survive by not suffocating in its own waste that it has not been able to release because we always interfere with the healing actions of the body…. Each cell in the body requires oxygen and other nutrients to survive I think we all can agree with this. Once a particular part of the body becomes so saturated with toxic waste nutrients like oxygen and glucose can’t get through the waste to reach and nourish the cells. When this happens it’s an attempt to survive not a failure to do anything that causes cells to mutate. The body does what the doctors call mutate into cancerous cells, the reason for this is because cancer cells can survive without oxygen (as opposed to normal cells)  and they also can derive some of their glucose needs from the waste they would, otherwise suffocate in and die. They divide and multiple because the more of them there are the faster they can consume the waste….too bad we don’t change our lifestyle and fast and eat more fresh organic foods to help the body out.( So you see cancer is nothing like what you think it is….it’s not a death sentence it’s the body’s final attempt to remove toxins that have completely blocked the circulation of nutrients and oxygen(Our body must be kept clean and circulating otherwise disease develops its that simple) I can go down the list of what the medical industry calls disease when in reality they are all attempts by the body to either remove waste (the primary cause of disease because it causes congestion in the body) or prolong life altogether by stopping its normal process because it would die otherwise because of our destructive lifestyles.

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I just want to throw it out there: once people did think that flies did come from rotting meat, until adequate sanitation measures allowed the demonstration that they don't. Bacteria and viruses don't come from flesh either. Among many other things, bacteria have a very different genome from eukaryotes (includes humans), and a different set of enzymes in general.
One of the theories of how viruses originated, however, is that they came from transposons. Transposons are pieces of DNA that are capable of "jumping" out of a gene and re-inserting themselves elsewhere (which is often what viral DNA will do). However, this supposedly occurred millions of years ago, not to each person who has a disease.
Also, while lupus is an autoimmune disease, cancer is not. Autoimmune diseases involve the individual's immune system attacking the host tissues. In cancer, a single cell fails to kill itself when it is supposed to, and combined with other DNA errors, grows and multiplies continuously. The immune system normally clears out these types of growth, but sometimes this fails (either because the immune system is not faring so well or because the errors in the DNA of the cancer cells allows them to avoid death by the immune system). AIDS is likewise a failure of the immune system, not autoimmune in nature.

If you want to prove it to yourself....Leave some uncooked pork on your counter top overnight....When you wake it will have maggots in it....The maggots don't crawl under your door they grow out of the meat once it reaches the condition that provides maggots with food to grow(spoiled food,  waste or toxins whichever you prefer to call it). Once fully nurtrured they grow into adult flies. You don't need a lab to prove this one to be true buddy....The best way to find out truth is to test out the things you are being told....Otherwise you're just taking people's word for it whether they be "experts" or not.....As for cancer the immune system doesn’t fail to do anything. Cancer is nothing more than a survival attempt by the body. Trying to survive by not suffocating in its own waste that it has not been able to release because we always interfere with the healing actions of the body…. Each cell in the body requires oxygen and other nutrients to survive I think we all can agree with this. Once a particular part of the body becomes so saturated with toxic waste nutrients like oxygen and glucose can’t get through the waste to reach and nourish the cells. When this happens it’s an attempt to survive not a failure to do anything that causes cells to mutate. The body does what the doctors call mutate into cancerous cells, the reason for this is because cancer cells can survive without oxygen (as opposed to normal cells)  and they also can derive some of their glucose needs from the waste they would, otherwise suffocate in and die. They divide and multiple because the more of them there are the faster they can consume the waste….too bad we don’t change our lifestyle and fast and eat more fresh organic foods to help the body out.( So you see cancer is nothing like what you think it is….it’s not a death sentence it’s the body’s final attempt to remove toxins that have completely blocked the circulation of nutrients and oxygen(Our body must be kept clean and circulating otherwise disease develops its that simple) I can go down the list of what the medical industry calls disease when in reality they are all attempts by the body to either remove waste (the primary cause of disease because it causes congestion in the body) or prolong life altogether by stopping its normal process because it would die otherwise because of our destructive lifestyles.

Hey Buddy, (haha, I sound like Jillian Michaels)
I might be a part of this medical industry you speak of. I'm a veterinary student (strictly speaking, not medical in the medical=human sense, but still sciencey).
The experiment with meat was conducting a few hundred years ago, once they secured a fresh piece of meat (no fly had laid eggs on it) and good enough filter to keep flies out from the jar (I think it was cheesecloth!). No maggots.
Pasteur continued that experiment with the swan-neck flask (which prevented bacterial contamination of the broth in the flask), which apparently is still on display (broth and all) in the Pasteur Institute, and still sterile.
Often, when we're culturing bacteria, we have a set of "control" plates of agar, which have the exact same ingredients, from the exact same batch, but have not been inoculated with the bacteria (or bacteria-contaminated substance). Inoculated plates grow colonies when incubated, and un-inoculated plates don't, even though incubated. I guess that's the closest I can think of that I've done myself.
Sometimes I'm quite skeptical of data and diseases/disease processes that don't quite have the support behind them that they should, and so-called syndromes that are really pathological processes that can be treated in more effective ways if we address the root of the problem. But equally, I'm also skeptical about holistic ideas that don't have much backing either, or misuse terms like "toxin" or make mistakes with anatomy. Not saying you have, I've just seen some... questionable stuff before.
However, I have to question it when I hear about the medical industry that keeps people in the dark. Often, this industry apparently hides information, or makes up information, for the purpose of sales. But these sales are generally said to be pharmaceuticals. However, the science behind this industry pre-dates pharmaceuticals as we know them (well, before Bayer and synthesizing compounds, rather than just distilling salicylic acid from willow bark and whatnot). I think the basic science regarding the origin of organisms is completely sound, but when it comes to pharmaceuticals (and especially efficacy), that's when I have to question whose interests are involved.
With vaccines, some work remarkably. Some are just really, really terrible. There are all sort of partly-useless animal vaccines out there that most vets don't bother to recommend, such as FIV, FIP, and rattlesnake venom. Either the efficacy is less than 1%, or as with the venom, you have to booster several times per year. Often when a product is first released, the pharmaceutical company's own data is the only data available, but after it's been on the market, inevitably there is more independent testing. It just takes a pubmed or google scholar search usually. (that being said, for some veterinarians the profit made on vaccines constitutes a sizable portion of their income, so there probably are some that recommend poor vaccines or recommend boostering more often than needed).
As for cancer, toxic situations is not the only type that leads to it. Any situation that damages DNA or promotes cell growth can promote cancer. Carcinogens (including UVB from the sun) can damage DNA, leading to the cancer cell never dying and endlessly multiplying. If cell growth is promoted, there are more cells that could potentially harbor a DNA mutation that progresses to cancer (since mutation happens now and then, carcinogen or not). This is apparently one of the ways humans can get colon cancer, since continuous damage to the lining of the colon will lead to constant attempts at cellular regeneration.

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I just want to throw it out there: once people did think that flies did come from rotting meat, until adequate sanitation measures allowed the demonstration that they don't. Bacteria and viruses don't come from flesh either. Among many other things, bacteria have a very different genome from eukaryotes (includes humans), and a different set of enzymes in general.
One of the theories of how viruses originated, however, is that they came from transposons. Transposons are pieces of DNA that are capable of "jumping" out of a gene and re-inserting themselves elsewhere (which is often what viral DNA will do). However, this supposedly occurred millions of years ago, not to each person who has a disease.
Also, while lupus is an autoimmune disease, cancer is not. Autoimmune diseases involve the individual's immune system attacking the host tissues. In cancer, a single cell fails to kill itself when it is supposed to, and combined with other DNA errors, grows and multiplies continuously. The immune system normally clears out these types of growth, but sometimes this fails (either because the immune system is not faring so well or because the errors in the DNA of the cancer cells allows them to avoid death by the immune system). AIDS is likewise a failure of the immune system, not autoimmune in nature.

If you want to prove it to yourself....Leave some uncooked pork on your counter top overnight....When you wake it will have maggots in it....The maggots don't crawl under your door they grow out of the meat once it reaches the condition that provides maggots with food to grow(spoiled food,  waste or toxins whichever you prefer to call it). Once fully nurtrured they grow into adult flies. You don't need a lab to prove this one to be true buddy....The best way to find out truth is to test out the things you are being told....Otherwise you're just taking people's word for it whether they be "experts" or not.....As for cancer the immune system doesn’t fail to do anything. Cancer is nothing more than a survival attempt by the body. Trying to survive by not suffocating in its own waste that it has not been able to release because we always interfere with the healing actions of the body…. Each cell in the body requires oxygen and other nutrients to survive I think we all can agree with this. Once a particular part of the body becomes so saturated with toxic waste nutrients like oxygen and glucose can’t get through the waste to reach and nourish the cells. When this happens it’s an attempt to survive not a failure to do anything that causes cells to mutate. The body does what the doctors call mutate into cancerous cells, the reason for this is because cancer cells can survive without oxygen (as opposed to normal cells)  and they also can derive some of their glucose needs from the waste they would, otherwise suffocate in and die. They divide and multiple because the more of them there are the faster they can consume the waste….too bad we don’t change our lifestyle and fast and eat more fresh organic foods to help the body out.( So you see cancer is nothing like what you think it is….it’s not a death sentence it’s the body’s final attempt to remove toxins that have completely blocked the circulation of nutrients and oxygen(Our body must be kept clean and circulating otherwise disease develops its that simple) I can go down the list of what the medical industry calls disease when in reality they are all attempts by the body to either remove waste (the primary cause of disease because it causes congestion in the body) or prolong life altogether by stopping its normal process because it would die otherwise because of our destructive lifestyles.

Hey Buddy, (haha, I sound like Jillian Michaels)
I might be a part of this medical industry you speak of. I'm a veterinary student (strictly speaking, not medical in the medical=human sense, but still sciencey).
The experiment with meat was conducting a few hundred years ago, once they secured a fresh piece of meat (no fly had laid eggs on it) and good enough filter to keep flies out from the jar (I think it was cheesecloth!). No maggots.
Pasteur continued that experiment with the swan-neck flask (which prevented bacterial contamination of the broth in the flask), which apparently is still on display (broth and all) in the Pasteur Institute, and still sterile.
Often, when we're culturing bacteria, we have a set of "control" plates of agar, which have the exact same ingredients, from the exact same batch, but have not been inoculated with the bacteria (or bacteria-contaminated substance). Inoculated plates grow colonies when incubated, and un-inoculated plates don't, even though incubated. I guess that's the closest I can think of that I've done myself.
Sometimes I'm quite skeptical of data and diseases/disease processes that don't quite have the support behind them that they should, and so-called syndromes that are really pathological processes that can be treated in more effective ways if we address the root of the problem. But equally, I'm also skeptical about holistic ideas that don't have much backing either, or misuse terms like "toxin" or make mistakes with anatomy. Not saying you have, I've just seen some... questionable stuff before.
However, I have to question it when I hear about the medical industry that keeps people in the dark. Often, this industry apparently hides information, or makes up information, for the purpose of sales. But these sales are generally said to be pharmaceuticals. However, the science behind this industry pre-dates pharmaceuticals as we know them (well, before Bayer and synthesizing compounds, rather than just distilling salicylic acid from willow bark and whatnot). I think the basic science regarding the origin of organisms is completely sound, but when it comes to pharmaceuticals (and especially efficacy), that's when I have to question whose interests are involved.
With vaccines, some work remarkably. Some are just really, really terrible. There are all sort of partly-useless animal vaccines out there that most vets don't bother to recommend, such as FIV, FIP, and rattlesnake venom. Either the efficacy is less than 1%, or as with the venom, you have to booster several times per year. Often when a product is first released, the pharmaceutical company's own data is the only data available, but after it's been on the market, inevitably there is more independent testing. It just takes a pubmed or google scholar search usually. (that being said, for some veterinarians the profit made on vaccines constitutes a sizable portion of their income, so there probably are some that recommend poor vaccines or recommend boostering more often than needed).
As for cancer, toxic situations is not the only type that leads to it. Any situation that damages DNA or promotes cell growth can promote cancer. Carcinogens (including UVB from the sun) can damage DNA, leading to the cancer cell never dying and endlessly multiplying. If cell growth is promoted, there are more cells that could potentially harbor a DNA mutation that progresses to cancer (since mutation happens now and then, carcinogen or not). This is apparently one of the ways humans can get colon cancer, since continuous damage to the lining of the colon will lead to constant attempts at cellular regeneration.

Ok….we will just have to agree to disagree on the flies and maggots thing….Although as I said all you have to do is leave uncooked pork out over night and you will see yourself….You don’t need cheese cloth or anything….You know whether or not you have flies in your house….Secondly there have been several studies done on natural cures….just non done by the FDA for obvious reasons they tested vitamins and minerals but they use the synthetic variety and that is useless to the human body…….. Search Gunther Enderlein if you want another scientist beside Beauchamp who have proven this there are many….In 1883 Beauchamp boldly said “the primary cause of disease is in us, always in us.” We are all exposed to microbes in our body 24 hours a day, through out our life time….We have more microorganisms in our body that we have cells. Some need oxygen and some don’t…..Basically some microorganisms help us to digest our food and manufacture important substances like vitamin B12 while others help to break down waste materials such as fecal matter……Without them we would drown in a pool of garbage(antibiotics contribute to the suffocation of cells in their own waste causing them to mutate into cancer cells to survive)….Obviously to survive we need both types of microorganisms and we breed them inside the body……Beauchamps’s work proved that if the acid/alkaline balance (PH) of the body is slightly more acidic the body produced more food for the destructive germs to feed upon and the risk of becoming infected increased. In his experiments, beauchamp was able to prove that microbes are capable of pleomorphism…primitive microbes which exist in every person’s blood and cells…..These can alter their form to appear as different germs. In other words the primitive and harmless microbes live in a strong and healthy alkaline ph but morph themselves into bacteria when the ph changes to become mildly acidic…..These bacteria change to fungi when the ph rises to a level medium acidity and the fungi change into virus when they are exposed to a strong acidic ph….The body’s ph moves from alkalinity toward acidity when acidic metabolic waste products, dead cell material, blood proteins, and toxins are trapped and accumulate in the body’s fluids and tissues…..The result is what we call being sick and is nothing more than the body’s attempt to return to a more alkaline state by releasing the built up toxins….. Infection is one of the bodys most effective means of getting over a toxicity crisis, unless the immune system has already been compromised to a point of no repair, as was common during the middle ages when the plague killed millions of malnourished and immune-deficient people. Microbes get out of control only when the level of toxicity in the body is extremely high….In this instance short term medical intervention would be justified….That should, however, be preceded or accompanied by the cleansing of the body form toxins and waste….Suppressing an infection with  drugs can have severe consequences that may show up years later as heart disease, rheumatism, diabetes, or cancer…..That’s another lie that we have been fed and that’s just plain and simple….We all need sunlight or we would die after long periods of time with out it….It doesn’t not cause cancer….it may however damage cells…..which is not a prerequisite for cancer it just causes the body to turn over those damaged cells just as the body get rid of cancer cells everyday. That’s right the body turns over 60,000,000,000 cells a day they are all either worn out, damaged, or cancerous….You have to ask yourself what makes the body not get rid of the cancer cells when people are diagnosed with cancer that sticks around day after day and why do they multiply….If this particular part of the body is full of toxins and waste the cells must remain cancerous in order to live in such an environment and they multiply to help eat the waste(as they are able to eat toxins to derive some of their glucose needs) and create the environment needed for normal cells. In the past 10 years it has been proven that genes do not cause disease, but are, in fact, influenced and altered by changes in the body’s environment, from the very first moments in the mothers womb’s to the last day of a person’s life this happens….Not to mention a cancer cell continues to live for weeks on end even when the gene is removed from it….The gene only produces changes in the cells based on the information it is receiving from the cell environment….Acidic cells that are poorly oxygenated will cause cells to mutate and multiply….Damaged cells are merely turned over….In other words damaged cells in a clean oxygenated environment will merely be turned over, however, damaged cells in acidic environment that is deficient in oxygen will be turned over and mutate to survive certain death….Genes make the changes but not because it gets bored or because it malfunctions it is because genes only take orders from our thoughts and the environment around each cell…..

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Hmm :/ I would suggest a book on cancer genetics and evolutionary genetics, but I'm afraid you wouldn't trust the source of this information.
I think that, while there is a profit motivation for some of these groups that conduct studies, generally the information and mechanisms are correct. Doctors who practice holistic medicine go through med school/osteopath school too, it's just about how you interpret all the information and what the solution for the disease process is.

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childofzion, in regards to the spontaneous generation of pathogens (the maggots/meat thing), there are two cornerstone experiments that disproved this.  fb already mentioned them.  One involved rotting meat in jars with cheesecloth over them to allow airflow but prevent bugs from entering.  The other involved a swan shaped flask with broth in it.  Air could flow but particles (i.e. bugs or pathogens) could not.  No growth occurred in the flask unless the flask was tipped to allow particles to enter.  

You can do these experiments yourself.  Seal up a container with food, and cover it in a way that allows air flow (so it can rot) but doesn't allow bug entry.  That's the cheesecloth's purpose.  Then let it sit t room temperature.  There will be no bugs!  When we get fruit flies, they enter from the outdoors, just like house flies.  They're incredibly attracted to the fermentation of fruit.  It just takes one to lay eggs before the population explodes.

Spontaneous generation of pathogens was debunked about 150 years ago.  I can't believe that any trained medical practitioner (holistic or otherwise) still believes it.

If you think all sources are equal then you should be able to look at some resources like faunablues suggested.  You might fight some new information that resonates with you.  Like fb said, most of the discoveries we are talking about are very basic and were made before mammoth pharmaceutical companies could taint information.

Also, it's so hard to read your posts.  Punctuation or bullet points would make people more willing to read.  The elipses and the un-broken body of text is very cumbersome.

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I want to add that, it is worthwhile to look at the methods, controls, and data obtained from experiments.  Look at the text of the report itself.  Usually, the part that gets misconstrued by the media or others is the interpretation.  They will claim "xyz causes heart disease" and then you go back to the text of the report and see that they didn't properly control for other variables, or the findings were statistically insignificant, etc.  And often, studies are peer-reviewed by other scientists, which is great and makes for solid research.  It's always worth investigating. 

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just 'cuz I found a hair up my ass a moment ago, I decided to discover how many lightning deaths occur in the US annually....

approx. 80

How many have died of H1N1 in the US over the past 7 months?

approx. 1,000

I'd like others to observe the citing of sources via linking through the factoids

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Hmm :/ I would suggest a book on cancer genetics and evolutionary genetics, but I'm afraid you wouldn't trust the source of this information.
I think that, while there is a profit motivation for some of these groups that conduct studies, generally the information and mechanisms are correct. Doctors who practice holistic medicine go through med school/osteopath school too, it's just about how you interpret all the information and what the solution for the disease process is.

Yep, in the end it's what you choose to believe....Right doctors are usually doctors before they get tired of treating symptoms instead of the cause which ensures the patient degenerates and needs more and more medicatition as it causese more disease in the body over time.....If the medical industry was looking for any cures they would have found them already....I don't know of one disease they have cured since they have been around. If that sounds right to you then what can you say.....

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childofzion, in regards to the spontaneous generation of pathogens (the maggots/meat thing), there are two cornerstone experiments that disproved this.  fb already mentioned them.  One involved rotting meat in jars with cheesecloth over them to allow airflow but prevent bugs from entering.  The other involved a swan shaped flask with broth in it.  Air could flow but particles (i.e. bugs or pathogens) could not.  No growth occurred in the flask unless the flask was tipped to allow particles to enter. 

You can do these experiments yourself.  Seal up a container with food, and cover it in a way that allows air flow (so it can rot) but doesn't allow bug entry.  That's the cheesecloth's purpose.  Then let it sit t room temperature.  There will be no bugs!  When we get fruit flies, they enter from the outdoors, just like house flies.  They're incredibly attracted to the fermentation of fruit.  It just takes one to lay eggs before the population explodes.

Spontaneous generation of pathogens was debunked about 150 years ago.  I can't believe that any trained medical practitioner (holistic or otherwise) still believes it.

If you think all sources are equal then you should be able to look at some resources like faunablues suggested.  You might fight some new information that resonates with you.  Like fb said, most of the discoveries we are talking about are very basic and were made before mammoth pharmaceutical companies could taint information.

Also, it's so hard to read your posts.  Punctuation or bullet points would make people more willing to read.  The elipses and the un-broken body of text is very cumbersome.

I don't put one source over another I my common sense and test what I can....I will test it this time with the cheese cloth and I will let you know what I find....Either way this doesn't change the fact that I'm living proof that if you dont fill your body with toxins you wont get sick (go through a cleansing action)....Also doesn't change the fact that vaccines are full of toxic poinsions and virus that would never get into your body with out being put there by a needle....thats why most people get sick for a few days after getting a flu shot because the body has to attempt to get the toxins out that were introduced dirctly to the blood stream....This can cause death for the simple fact that these shots all have different amounts of the toxic chemicals in them....some have more and some have less theres is not way to know.....This means a child may get a does that is so tocic it could cause death or a major reaction....Thats bad enough by itself...... Theres too much information out there is too much info around now for anyone to still be considering getting vaccinated with anything......Toxins cause disease and these things are full of themJust like the swine flu shot of 1976....people who dont know their history are doomed to repeat it.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uk6Qfg6RXOg

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Hmm :/ I would suggest a book on cancer genetics and evolutionary genetics, but I'm afraid you wouldn't trust the source of this information.
I think that, while there is a profit motivation for some of these groups that conduct studies, generally the information and mechanisms are correct. Doctors who practice holistic medicine go through med school/osteopath school too, it's just about how you interpret all the information and what the solution for the disease process is.

Yep, in the end it's what you choose to believe....Right doctors are usually doctors before they get tired of treating symptoms instead of the cause which ensures the patient degenerates and needs more and more medicatition as it causese more disease in the body over time.....If the medical industry was looking for any cures they would have found them already....I don't know of one disease they have cured since they have been around. If that sounds right to you then what can you say.....

Just a few clarifications.

Cured vs. eliminated.  Very different things.  However, there are diseases that have been largely eliminated: small pox is one big example.  Penetration into the developing world is difficult due to structural problems, though.  However, Haemophilus influenzae B, Polio, Measles (prior to the anti-vax movement), pertussis, etc. have all been essentially eliminated in the developed world.

If you get syphilis, you can be cured with Penicillin.  If you get tuberculosis, you can take isoniazid, rifampin, pyrazinamide, and ethambutol.  Plenty of "cures" are out there.  You don't have to look very hard.

Even difficult to treat idiopathic disease can be well-managed, e.g. Wegener's Granulomatosis.

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