Honey
Posted by Allychristine on Jul 21, 2008 · Member since Dec 2007 · 15438 posts
Eating honey is not vegan.
Discuss.
I know this has been talked about many a time on VW, but I would like to be involved in the discussion. If you aren't interested in debating if/why/etc. eating honey is not/is vegan, then don't post!
Agreed! FTR, I am highly allergic to bees but I still won't eat honey or kill them.
I'm on it!
By the official definition, vegan= a strict vegetarian that consumes no animal products. It can also extend to not wearing animal products. All the rest, with amounts of with harm and such, is what someone else had decided veganism should be.
I went to The Vegan Society's website, since they're the folks who coined the term.
Question: What is a vegan?
Answer: A vegan is someone who tries to live without exploiting animals, for the benefit of animals, people and the planet. Vegans eat a plant-based diet, with nothing coming from animals - no meat, milk, eggs or honey, for example. A vegan lifestyle also avoids leather, wool, silk and other animal products for clothing or any other purpose.
I never understand these arguments.
Can one eat honey? Sure!
Do vegans eat honey? No.
Can one be someone who doesn't eat animal products except honey? Sure!
But then why can't I call myself vegan? Because vegans don't eat honey.
You can have the same conversation but replace "honey" with "fish" and "vegan" with "vegetarian" (or hell leave it vegan if you like). I for one don't care what other people are eating and am not sure why honey is argued about so much. I'm just going to continue to live in my "really good vegetarian" bubble not worrying about what other people think.
Now, about 8 or nine years into being vegan, I allow myself to eat honey if it is in something, like local bread or rarely, a comercial "vegan" product.
me too. when i became vegan (in the middle of oklahoma!) i did not know any other vegans. i barely knew any vegetarians that had been vegetarian for any substantial about of time. i had no mentor to "show me the way" or to answer my questions.
...actually, i did know one vegan. i asked his friend, "what does he eat? what does he feel about honey?" and his friend said, "he doesn't eat much of anything. he's too into heroin."
and that was that.
so i made a "compromise" (since i honestly had no idea when it came to honey) that i would not add honey to anything i eat or eat it "as is" but if it was already in something i would eat it.
that is what i have done for the last eight years.
i was a vegetarian before that, so that makes a total of nineteen years of being vegetarian.
i feel that for my purposes of being vegan, i'm accomplishing my goals. most vegans i know have only been a vegan/vegetarian for a short while and a lot of them don't last past that. they tend to be the ones that might judge other vegans so harshly... but i feel that being a veg*n my whole life probably accomplishes a lot more than being a strict vegan for two years!
i just don't think that the very trivial amounts of honey that i might consume a couple of times a year are that catastrophic.
just like if someone spent a long time making me a vegan meal and then i found out that they used a little bit of honey, i'm not going to be all like, "yeah, it's cute that you made it and thought i would eat it, but no way!". i would do it for the other non vegan things, but not with honey.
i liked the analogy someone used about the dog licking the ice cream cone.
i disagree with the comparison of honey to milk because when milk comes out of an animal, is is nothing like the hay, grass, etc that the animal ate. honey, however, is the nectar that the bee collected but then with secretions added to it. so... it's a plant product that an animal altered... making it (in my mind) a plant product AND an animal product. quite similar to that analogy of a dog licking an ice cream cone. it's still ice cream, but with saliva added.
*shrugs* i'm not out for the title of "most impressive super vegan"... nor do i want to judge all of the others.
;)b hh
In addition, I think this is a great passage from Being Vegan by J. Stepaniak (pg. 5):
There are no such entities as "part-time vegans," "partial vegans," or "dietary vegans." People who just have a plant-based diet are not vegans; they are total vegetarians (her emphasis). Until one's commitment extends beyond the scope of food, the word vegan does not apply....Unlike vegetarianism, being vegan does not entail simply what a person does or doesn't eat-it comprises who a person is.
............vegans do subscribe to a shared tenet that builds a collective awareness. It is this coalescence of consciousness that creates a bond among vegans and has the power to transcend cursory distinctions. In the final analysis, despite our diversity, there is only one type of vegan-a person who is committed to and practices reverence and respect for all life."
what about the human aspect you guys?
i think everyone misunderstood my post regarding shoes and computers.
i was talking about things that were made from exploited humans who are also animals and were abused in the sense that they were forced to make things (for us) for little to no pay in bad working environments.
are you a true vegan if you contribute to this? there are alternatives to these things, usually.
by the definitions that people are giving, i would say probably not.
BTW: I'm happy that the newer people to the debate have profiles. Hi and welcome.
hi! i've actually had vegweb for quite a while, i just haven't posted much. mostly only in recipe reviews and i've posted a few recipes, although my last, like, five haven't posted yet.
Yeah. The recipes are hit and miss. Sometimes they get on in a couple of weeks, sometimes a few months, and sometimes they're never seen again. I think we need a thread on the Cooking board where we also post the recipes, as a "just in case" measure.
In addition, I think this is a great passage from Being Vegan by J. Stepaniak (pg. 5):
Dude, AC, I was just about to look that passage up. Read my mind!
i disagree with the comparison of honey to milk because when milk comes out of an animal, is is nothing like the hay, grass, etc that the animal ate. honey, however, is the nectar that the bee collected but then with secretions added to it. so... it's a plant product that an animal altered... making it (in my mind) a plant product AND an animal product. quite similar to that analogy of a dog licking an ice cream cone. it's still ice cream, but with saliva added.
I don't see what this has to do with it. Anything that an animal makes comes from a plant. I don't care if that animal digested the plant five times over and then excreted it, or whether they chewed it up and spit it out. Harvesting honey requires that we capture bees and then strip their home of honey--and it's not as if they're like, "Hey humans, I'm making this honey for ya!" That is not even remotely similar to my dog licking my ice cream cone before me.
I agree, though, rainbowdust, that it is not vegan for us to buy things produced in sweatshops. Yes, there are alternatives, so we should do our best to find those. But like hh said, that doesn't give us license to throw honey out the window. That doesn't make much sense to me.
I never understand these arguments.
Can one eat honey? Sure!
Do vegans eat honey? No.
Can one be someone who doesn't eat animal products except honey? Sure!
But then why can't I call myself vegan? Because vegans don't eat honey.
You've got mad brevity skills, RC! Nicely put.
I don't care if that animal digested the plant five times over and then excreted it, or whether they chewed it up and spit it out.
I just got vivid imagery of bottled camel spit.
I agree, though, rainbowdust, that it is not vegan for us to buy things produced in sweatshops. Yes, there are alternatives, so we should do our best to find those. But like hh said, that doesn't give us license to throw honey out the window. That doesn't make much sense to me.
oh, i wasn't saying that it gave anyone a license to through anything out the window. i was just saying that that's something that i don't think a lot of us consider. i've only known ONE vegetarian (he wasn't even vegan!!!) who didn't consider it to fit into his beliefs (based off of the ethical treatment of animals aspect) to have anything that wasn't made 100% in the usa. but then he would be faced with things like: i can only find two coats that fit my needs... one is leather but made in the usa and the other is non-leather but made in china... which one is more ethical to purchase? i would personally go with the non-leather sweatshop jacket with the thought that i don't think those people died making it but i know the animal died making the leather one... but to him, they were both very important issues and carried equal weight.
all of these people are arguing in circles, throwing labels, & passing judgement, but i bet that if you looked through their things, they, themselves, are also not "truly vegan" to the best of their abilities.
sort of like that saying, "people in glass houses should not cast stones".
i was just bringing up a point that i don't think enough people consider. i know that i never considered it until i met my friend and he had that jacket dilemma and explained it to me.
all of these people are arguing in circles, throwing labels, & passing judgement, but i bet that if you looked through their things, they, themselves, are also not "truly vegan" to the best of their abilities.
A while ago we listed things in our lifestyle that challenged the vegan label. I don't think any of us are throwing stones in glass houses. I think that we're more debating a specific issue. But you're right - debates like this generally go in circles. I don't generally change my mind as a result of a debate, but it gives me other perspectives to think about.
Yeah, that's a legit dilemma. Good for your friend for being so conscious of where the things he buys come from!
I don't think anyone is being judgmental. I'm not going to say, "Oh, so and so is such a jerk because she eats honey." It's just a matter of being accurate and purposeful with our language so that we can be good diplomats for veganism.
all of these people are arguing in circles, throwing labels, & passing judgement, but i bet that if you looked through their things, they, themselves, are also not "truly vegan" to the best of their abilities.
A while ago we listed things in our lifestyle that challenged the vegan label. I don't think any of us are throwing stones in glass houses. I think that we're more debating a specific issue. But you're right - debates like this generally go in circles. I don't generally change my mind as a result of a debate, but it gives me other perspectives to think about.
Agreed. I enjoy thinking about things fresh again and hearing everyone's reasoning. Everyone brings a different point of view to the table.
all of these people are arguing in circles, throwing labels, & passing judgement, but i bet that if you looked through their things, they, themselves, are also not "truly vegan" to the best of their abilities.
This statement is a bit offensive, but I understand what you are trying to say. I am vegan (truly) to the best of my abilities. I strive to be better each day. I do think about the human exploitation issue as well. I love to buy made in the USA (downtown LA ;) ) organic cotton...but don't really have a need to buy a lot of clothing since I already have so much. I do use products/things that I had before becoming vegan because I do not believe in waste, but there are definitely some products that I do not feel comfortable wearing, such as wool/leather. It's been said several times that we can't be perfect, but once again...we can do our best.
I found another great passage from Being Vegan pg. 9:
Labels can be valuable designations for clarity. When used as such, they do not condemn or condone individual choices; instead, they elucidate, identify, and describe.
all of these people are arguing in circles, throwing labels, & passing judgement, but i bet that if you looked through their things, they, themselves, are also not "truly vegan" to the best of their abilities.
This statement is a bit offensive, but I understand what you are trying to say. I am vegan (truly) to the best of my abilities.
it wasn't meant to be offensive. it was meant to be mind opening. i'm sorry if it did, in fact, offend anyone.
it's great that you do what you can to help out people, too. not everyone does, but i don't think that's because they don't care. i think it's more ignorace... they just simply never knew or realized it.
off topic, but i don't know how else to tell her this since i don't have a paid membership:
KMK, i just checked out your profile which lead me to your food blog.
man, i love the way you write about foods! you make it sound so exciting!
and your pictures are absolutely gorgeous!
have you ever considered writing a vegan cookbook and including any of those pictures?
or perhaps even writing food reviews for a vegan magazine or newsletter (and don't
forget the pictures there, either!)?
i think if non-vegans stumbled upon your site, they'd be excited enough to give it a try!
it wasn't meant to be offensive. it was meant to be mind opening. i'm sorry if it did, in fact, offend anyone.
it's great that you do what you can to help out people, too. not everyone does, but i don't think that's because they don't care. i think it's more ignorace... they just simply never knew or realized it.
;)b
;)b hh
In addition, I think this is a great passage from Being Vegan by J. Stepaniak (pg. 5):
There are no such entities as "part-time vegans," "partial vegans," or "dietary vegans." People who just have a plant-based diet are not vegans; they are total vegetarians (her emphasis). Until one's commitment extends beyond the scope of food, the word vegan does not apply....Unlike vegetarianism, being vegan does not entail simply what a person does or doesn't eat-it comprises who a person is.
............vegans do subscribe to a shared tenet that builds a collective awareness. It is this coalescence of consciousness that creates a bond among vegans and has the power to transcend cursory distinctions. In the final analysis, despite our diversity, there is only one type of vegan-a person who is committed to and practices reverence and respect for all life."
But the problem I have with this is that it is opinion added onto the flat out definition. What HH gave is basically just like the dictionary defn. I think the dictionary defn includes the just diet part because the defn is defined by how the word is commonly used, even if it isn't totally correct. I just find issue with motivation being put into the defn. For ex, to limit harm. Vegans can be vegans for all reasons.
What I find supremely ironic is that most of the people here (remote regions of Costa Rica that don't even exist on maps) are "vegan" by default. They don't call themselves that, of course, and they would eat meat if they could (and probably dream about the day), but their day to day lives are sooo much more "vegan" than even the die-hard ones in the west. They live on rice and beans, they make their own clothing and furniture, they don't drive, they grow their own food, they respect if not revere nature. And oh, they don't wear shoes so the whole china or rubber argument is out :p You get the point! Funny how HARD we have to TRY just to live like "underdeveloped" nations. Really, I think these guys have us beat and they are way ahead of us in so many ways. :-D
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