Honey
Posted by Allychristine on Jul 21, 2008 · Member since Dec 2007 · 15438 posts
Eating honey is not vegan.
Discuss.
I know this has been talked about many a time on VW, but I would like to be involved in the discussion. If you aren't interested in debating if/why/etc. eating honey is not/is vegan, then don't post!
Yeah, when I was on a cruise once, they had baklava as the vegan dessert. So I ordered that. Honey! Duh! Not vegan! I was disappointed.
See, and the more we communicate to others that honey is not vegan, the more educated people become about it and the less we have to encounter unexpected honey mishaps like those. If people keep on thinking honey is an optional vegan thing, the confusion will persist. Not fun.
What miffs me the most, and I think one of the main reasons why this debate started, is when people imply to others that honey is an exception to vegan principles. It is not. Like, many of us would be mad if someone, as a representative of veganism (which we all are, like it or not, by being the only vegans among omni's most of the time), said, "Well, I'm vegan, but milk is one of those things I, personally, am not concerned about." Right? That's lacto-veg, not vegan. I don't see why honey should be any different.
Maybe it's different because there is a widely accepted term for those who consume dairy--lacto-vegetarian--while there isn't a widely accepted term for those who eat honey (although mdv mentioned apian-vegan? I've never heard this term before and the "apian" prefix is not well-known (whereas lacto and ovo are more common). Similar to pescetarians--many of these people call themselves vegetarians who eat fish, perhaps because the prefix "pesce" also isn't well known. I dunno...just a thought.
See, and the more we communicate to others that honey is not vegan, the more educated people become about it and the less we have to encounter unexpected honey mishaps like those. If people keep on thinking honey is an optional vegan thing, the confusion will persist. Not fun.
And I totally agree that things that contain honey should not be labeled as vegan. I'm all for complete disclosure of ingredients ;)b
See, and the more we communicate to others that honey is not vegan, the more educated people become about it and the less we have to encounter unexpected honey mishaps like those. If people keep on thinking honey is an optional vegan thing, the confusion will persist. Not fun.
And I totally agree that things that contain honey should not be labeled as vegan. I'm all for complete disclosure of ingredients ;)b
And part of making sure this becomes accepted practice is messaging to others that honey is not vegan.
Well, I am not sure I agree that honey is different from other animal products in the way you say, CK. An egg is essentially the product of a chicken's menstrual cycle. Eating an egg doesn't create or destroy life. Chickens make eggs anyway. Like, if we had a bunch of wild chickens, they'd still be laying eggs, right? Granted, we must capture all the chickens in one place to collect the eggs, but same goes for honey.
Hens will lay eggs regardless of whether there's anyone there to collect them.
KMK & Double H, I know that hens lay eggs regardless of the situation and that it is a part of their menstrual cycle. There were two points that I was trying to make with that statement.
A) If the egg had been fertilized, it would have turned into a living thing, unless one eats the fetilized egg (hypothetically speaking). Therefore, life or a possible life has been destroyed. Honey has no chance of living ever. I mean, you can fertilize honey all you want, but...I'll leave that to the imagination. :D
B) Honey is not a part of a life cycle, just food that the bee has essentially eaten and regurgitated numerous times to be used for food and warmth.
Let's say, for the sake of a debate, that you are enjoying some yummy vegan ice cream. You have a dog who is staring down that ice cream...so, you allow him/her to have a lick of it (I know there are people who do this). The dog leaves a trail of saliva across the ice cream. Is it no longer vegan ice cream since there is an animal's fluid on it? Will you continue eating it?
PK & KMK, I haven't given much thought to the whole eating a spider's web or using silk, but what do you think about using chicken manure to fertilize vegetables and fruit?
What about the bugs that we eat in our sleep or step on or swat at unconsciously?
Also, could someone enlighten me as to how a honeybee gets treated cruelly on a honey farm? I'm just curious. It seems to me that of all the things we humans have mass produced by animals, this would be one the of the least cruel things. Again, I'm not saying that it's right, I just want to know. The way I have always thought it went was the bees would produce the honey in a manmade hive that has x number of drawers containing x number of honeycombs. The honeycombs are removed once full and taken to a machine that extracts the honey. Is that the way it goes?
Well, I didn't know that an egg was part of a hen's menstral cycle.
Well, I didn't know that an egg was part of a hen's menstral cycle.
I just checked, it appears that it is technically not a part of a menstrual cycle. I was just agreeing with KMK that it is like a menstrual cycle.
The nature of my post goes unchanged though.
Oh. No wonder I didn't know it, then. ::)
Hahaha :-D
Well, I didn't know that an egg was part of a hen's menstral cycle.
Yes it is! It's a chicken ovulating in the same way a human does.
So yeah, there is no shedding of the uterine lining like in humans, but it's the same deal. Getting rid of an unfertilized egg that we don't need anymore.
Regarding your post, CK:
A) If the egg had been fertilized, it would have turned into a living thing, unless one eats the fetilized egg (hypothetically speaking). Therefore, life or a possible life has been destroyed. Honey has no chance of living ever. I mean, you can fertilize honey all you want, but...I'll leave that to the imagination. :D
I don't understand. I mean, you're right, honey doesn't have to do with the reproductive cycle. Agreed. But are there really camps of people who avoid eggs for the reason that an egg represents a missed opportunity for fertilization? I mean, every time a woman menstruates, we destroy a possible life, in that sense. I guess I've just never heard that argument before. I guess it could be a reason. ???
B) Honey is not a part of a life cycle, just food that the bee has essentially eaten and regurgitated numerous times to be used for food and warmth.
Exactly. For food and warmth. For THEM. Not for us to eat.
Let's say, for the sake of a debate, that you are enjoying some yummy vegan ice cream. You have a dog who is staring down that ice cream...so, you allow him/her to have a lick of it (I know there are people who do this). The dog leaves a trail of saliva across the ice cream. Is it no longer vegan ice cream since there is an animal's fluid on it? Will you continue eating it?
I wouldn't keep eating because that's a little too gross for me, but of course eating an ice cream cone with dog slobber on it is OK! It would become a problem if we started selling dog-saliva ice cream cones or something of the sort. Or, like, we FORCED a dog to lick ice cream cones all the time. (Love the analogy, haha :))
PK & KMK, I haven't given much thought to the whole eating a spider's web or using silk, but what do you think about using chicken manure to fertilize vegetables and fruit?
What about the bugs that we eat in our sleep or step on or swat at unconsciously?
As far as manure, we must do our best to seek out produce which is grown by doing the least harm possible. Yes, it is damn near impossible for most people to obtain "veganically-grown" produce. We have to choose the best option we can find--organic, local, etc. Like md said (I think), talk to your local farmers. Grow your own tomatoes. Just do your best.
Honey is different because we HAVE honey alternatives. Organic sugar, maple syrup, agave nectar, molasses, fruit juice--all of these are sweeteners we can use in various applications. There is no excuse for not being able to avoid honey.
As far as bugs go, I make the best effort possible not to kill bugs. I bring them outside if I see them or just let them be. I can't conceive of a way to avoid eating bugs in my sleep or stepping on them or the like. I can't be perfect. But can I not eat honey? Oh yeah. That I can do.
Ok, it seems to me that some people might be put off by the nature of the website I've been posting...so I'll just quote some of my favorite parts. CK, you asked a question about cruelty to bees..so you might want to read more on the site too. http://www.vegetus.org/honey/honey.htm
Definition of veganism
-"The simplest reason why honey isn't vegan is by definition...Any definition of veganism would talk about not exploiting animals, and honeybees (Apis mellifera) Click for a picture of a honeybee. are, without a doubt, animals. Honeybees are in the phylum Arthropoda--the same as lobsters and crabs. So in addition to crustaceans, if honeybees don't merit respect, that would also leave earthworms vulnerable to dissection in biology classes. Similarly, iscallops, snails, and oysters would be fair game--they are not as "high up" on the evolutionary scale as bees."
Bees and intelligence/pain
-" Vegans typically don't judge species based on their intelligence. If it were ok to eat someone because he's dumb, a lot of humans would be in trouble."
-"They are animals with a large nervous system (Snodgrass, 254) capable of transmitting pain signals. And unlike in the case of plants, pain as we know it would be a useful evolutionary feature since bees are capable of moving to avoid it. Which, as far as I'm concerned, is all that matters. Pain must be unpleasant or else it wouldn't work. If common sense isn't good enough, we can always resort to scientific studies (link) that indicate that bees feel pain."
Enslavement of bees
-"The simple fact is that the bees are enslaved. What? Bees slaves? Yes, bees as slaves. Or it's dominionism, exploitation of nature, human superiority, whatever you like to call it. It's the idea that humans are justified in using all other life forms instrumentally, for our own benefit."
-There is a full section with many descriptions of the cruelty toward bees on bee farms on the site.
Health aspects of honey
-" But isn't honey good for you? Even if it were, it is not a reason for vegans to eat it. (How many times have you heard that meat is good for you?"
-"What about allergies? The evidence that eating locally grown honey helps reduce allergies is largely anecdotal. When actual experiments were conducted, they showed a marginal improvement at best (certainly not worthy of doing if allergy shots are used) (Schmidt & Buchmann 938). If you still have severe allergies after becoming vegan there are other alternatives to animal-tested pharmaceuticals to try before resorting to bees (like homeopathy)."
eta: Plus all that KMK just said. I was going to say that.
Bees and intelligence/pain
If it were ok to eat someone because he's dumb, a lot of humans would be in trouble."
Wait, that's not OK?
*burps*
I posted that one just for you, KMK. I KNEW. IT.
WAIT, where did CK go? Nooooo, KMK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
jk, CK ;)
I'm gonna respond to these later, I have an hours worth of driving to do.
Oh, and VERY funny, AC. ::)
I posted that one just for you, KMK. I KNEW. IT.
WAIT, where did CK go? Nooooo, KMK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
jk, CK ;)
Let's say, for the sake of a debate, that you are enjoying some yummy vegan ice cream. You have a dog who is staring down that ice cream...so, you allow him/her to have a lick of it (I know there are people who do this). The dog leaves a trail of saliva across the ice cream. Is it no longer vegan ice cream since there is an animal's fluid on it? Will you continue eating it?
I wouldn't keep eating because that's a little too gross for me, but of course eating an ice cream cone with dog slobber on it is OK! It would become a problem if we started selling dog-saliva ice cream cones or something of the sort. Or, like, we FORCED a dog to lick ice cream cones all the time. (Love the analogy, haha :))
It would be completely wrong to force a dog to do that - so I'll lick your cone.
Granted, I've never met a dog who wouldn't lick an ice cream cone. ;D
KMK :
But are there really camps of people who avoid eggs for the reason that an egg represents a missed opportunity for fertilization? I mean, every time a woman menstruates, we destroy a possible life, in that sense.
No, that's not what I mean here. An egg is a part of the chicken's life cycle, regardless of if it's fertilized or not. Honey is made by the food bees eat and then puke out. Honey is not a naturally occurring thing in a bee's life...it is created by the bee, not from the bee. Does that make sense? I'm not trying to repeat myself or talk in circles here...
Let's say, for the sake of a debate, that you are enjoying some yummy vegan ice cream. You have a dog who is staring down that ice cream...so, you allow him/her to have a lick of it (I know there are people who do this). The dog leaves a trail of saliva across the ice cream. Is it no longer vegan ice cream since there is an animal's fluid on it? Will you continue eating it?
I wouldn't keep eating because that's a little too gross for me, but of course eating an ice cream cone with dog slobber on it is OK! It would become a problem if we started selling dog-saliva ice cream cones or something of the sort. Or, like, we FORCED a dog to lick ice cream cones all the time. (Love the analogy, haha :))
Why is it ok to still eat if it has an animal's spit on it? I understand that it was a "here you go, little buddy" situation and both parties were consenting to it...but does that change the fact that the person eating this ice cream cone is consuming an animal by-product? If a bee flew up to you carrying a honeycomb and said "here, I made this and I want you to try it" and you agreed, would that be vegan? Of course, I know that will never happen. :P
Enslavement of bees
-"The simple fact is that the bees are enslaved. What? Bees slaves? Yes, bees as slaves. Or it's dominionism, exploitation of nature, human superiority, whatever you like to call it. It's the idea that humans are justified in using all other life forms instrumentally, for our own benefit."
AC, I actually did browse through that site. It was one of the only ones that I saw regarding cruelty to bees.
I already stated my feelings on exploitation earlier. In today's world, there is nothing that is not exploited to some degree. I'm not saying that using a bee to massively produce honey is right. I could argue that plants are living things too and that massively producing them is exploitation. I could argue that telling people how bad meat is for them and that they should only eat veggies, fruits, and grains is exploitation, albeit a positive form. ;)b
No, that's not what I mean here. An egg is a part of the chicken's life cycle, regardless of if it's fertilized or not. Honey is made by the food bees eat and then puke out. Honey is not a naturally occurring thing in a bee's life...it is created by the bee, not from the bee. Does that make sense? I'm not trying to repeat myself or talk in circles here...
So you mean that an egg is a stage of life for a chicken? Only if it's fertilized. Otherwise, it's just bodily waste. But how is honey not a naturally occurring thing in a bee's life? Of course it is. It is necessary for their existence, isn't it?
Why is it ok to still eat if it has an animal's spit on it? I understand that it was a "here you go, little buddy" situation and both parties were consenting to it...but does that change the fact that the person eating this ice cream cone is consuming an animal by-product? If a bee flew up to you carrying a honeycomb and said "here, I made this and I want you to try it" and you agreed, would that be vegan? Of course, I know that will never happen. :P
I liken this to "If you were on a desert island and the only food you had were hotdogs that fell out of the sky and you needed to eat so you could survive until you were rescued, would you eat them?" Totally unrealistic, hypothetical situation devised to reveal hypocrisies or flaws in veganism that aren't relevant to real life. But to answer your question, yes, saliva is an animal product. If I swallow someone's spit when I kiss them, that's an animal product too. Although, it is not a product, really, because I didn't go buy their spit.
And if a bee could talk to me and say, "Here, honey, have some honey!" then that would be OK to eat. You wouldn't be violating veganism to eat it, IMHO, although I don't think vegan philosophy stipulates what the appropriate action would be here because IT'S NEVER GONNA HAPPEN. But enough with the unrealistic hypotheticals diversion tactic, CK! Bees cannot consent to giving us honey. It's more complicated than, "This comes from an animal, therefore it is BAD." It is, "I'm taking this from an animal without the animal's consent. I don't have a right to."
AC, I actually did browse through that site. It was one of the only ones that I saw regarding cruelty to bees.
I already stated my feelings on exploitation earlier. In today's world, there is nothing that is not exploited to some degree. I'm not saying that using a bee to massively produce honey is right. I could argue that plants are living things too and that massively producing them is exploitation. I could argue that telling people how bad meat is for them and that they should only eat veggies, fruits, and grains is exploitation, albeit a positive form. ;)b
Fair enough. You are right. We exploit the entire Earth. But if any of us are truly concerned with the exploitation of plants, then we should consume as few animal products as possible. I mean, to say, "Well, we exploit everything, whatchya gonna do?" is a lame excuse. That's like saying, "Well, if I'm gonna be an asshole to this one person, I might as well be an asshole to everyone!" Not good enough.
No, that's not what I mean here. An egg is a part of the chicken's life cycle, regardless of if it's fertilized or not. Honey is made by the food bees eat and then puke out. Honey is not a naturally occurring thing in a bee's life...it is created by the bee, not from the bee. Does that make sense? I'm not trying to repeat myself or talk in circles here...
This wasn't directed to me..but I don't think I get it. It's created by the bee..for the bee.........what's the issue?
Why is it ok to still eat if it has an animal's spit on it? I understand that it was a "here you go, little buddy" situation and both parties were consenting to it...but does that change the fact that the person eating this ice cream cone is consuming an animal by-product? If a bee flew up to you carrying a honeycomb and said "here, I made this and I want you to try it" and you agreed, would that be vegan? Of course, I know that will never happen. :P
Are we talking about soy ice cream here, or dairy ice cream?
I wouldn't give a dog either..really...b/c that doesn't seem healthy for the pup..but if I was going to give him/her some soy ice cream...I would put it on my finger first...and then NOT LICK MY FINGER. Problem solved. No, it would not be vegan to consume the honey even with the bee's consent. Not cruel, but not vegan.
AC, I actually did browse through that site. It was one of the only ones that I saw regarding cruelty to bees.
I already stated my feelings on exploitation earlier. In today's world, there is nothing that is not exploited to some degree. I'm not saying that using a bee to massively produce honey is right. I could argue that plants are living things too and that massively producing them is exploitation. I could argue that telling people how bad meat is for them and that they should only eat veggies, fruits, and grains is exploitation, albeit a positive form. ;)b
Yes, exploitation happens. BUT, eating honey is not doing anything to avoid that exploitation..............CK, don't give me that plant crap! Enough said.
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