Honey
Posted by Allychristine on Jul 21, 2008 · Member since Dec 2007 · 15438 posts
Eating honey is not vegan.
Discuss.
I know this has been talked about many a time on VW, but I would like to be involved in the discussion. If you aren't interested in debating if/why/etc. eating honey is not/is vegan, then don't post!
There was a pretty good show on Colony Collapse disorder on PBS a few weeks ago, saying that pesticide use was one of the larger contributers, but it alone was not responsible. It also said the cell phone towers was a myth, but that a virus or parasite in the intestine was also weakening them and that, combined with pollution, was leading to the downfall.
What does everyone think of the bees that are carted around for fertilization of all the plants that vegans need to eat? We need this utilization and exploitation of the bees to continue the vegan lifestyle, without it there is no way enough plant material would be produced.
BTW... I think I'm falling a little bit in love with KB. :)>>>
True that, HH.
(HH, you're the only true vegan Honey for me! :-*)
eta: dang, bp! you beat me to this!
I'm enjoying this debate!
What miffs me the most, and I think one of the main reasons why this debate started, is when people imply to others that honey is an exception to vegan principles. It is not. Like, many of us would be mad if someone, as a representative of veganism (which we all are, like it or not, by being the only vegans among omni's most of the time), said, "Well, I'm vegan, but milk is one of those things I, personally, am not concerned about." Right? That's lacto-veg, not vegan. I don't see why honey should be any different. I am not comfortable drawing that line in the sand that says: "Cows, important; bees, not so much." And nothing I've heard thus far makes me comfortable making that distinction. Even if you say you are "not concerned about honey," you are still drawing that line.
I mean, it's the same old welfarist vs. abolitionist debate here, in essence. Which is always fun. :)
I guess I will give my two cents for the sake of a good debate. :)
I guess if you want to base it on a technicality, it wouldn't be considered vegan, but...
I think the reason it has the fine line is because honey is the one thing that you can eat that doesn't create or destroy life. What I mean by that is the bees are going to make the honey regardless of if they are on a bee farm or not, whereas a cow will only produce milk because a farmer is forcing her to (excluding nursing their young, of course), and the end 'product' (honey) is not a living thing (egg, baby cow / chicken, plant, etc).
Of course, I understand that bees probably die in the process, but what if there were a way to harvest it without injuring the bees or compromising their way of life?
Is it considered vegan to eat vegetables/fruits/grains that killed animals in the cultivation / harvesting process?
I don't agree with exploitation, but man exploits everything on this planet. Animals, plants, water, rocks, oil, and now apparently wind and solar energy...it's all bought and sold for personal and/or financial gain.
These are just things that I think about. I haven't gone vegan yet, but I do intend to someday down the line when I'm ready. And to be perfectly honest, I don't know if I will consume honey when that day comes. I never really eat it that much anyway already so it probably won't be an issue...
Well, I am not sure I agree that honey is different from other animal products in the way you say, CK. An egg is essentially the product of a chicken's menstrual cycle. Eating an egg doesn't create or destroy life. Chickens make eggs anyway. Like, if we had a bunch of wild chickens, they'd still be laying eggs, right? Granted, we must capture all the chickens in one place to collect the eggs, but same goes for honey.
I could be wrong, so correct me if so.
I was trying to think of something an insect makes that is comparable, so that we may be able to frame the question in a different light.
So tell me, would you have a problem eating discarded spider webs? What if collected and dried, they were amazing in Stir Fry?
Would it be OK to rob the spiders of their old webs? (The ones they dont live on or use anymore).
I'm sure there's a better insect secretion we could use as an example.
I was trying to think of something an insect makes that is comparable, so that we may be able to frame the question in a different light.
So tell me, would you have a problem eating discarded spider webs? What if collected and dried, they were amazing in Stir Fry?
Would it be OK to rob the spiders of their old webs? (The ones they dont live on or use anymore).
I'm sure there's a better insect secretion we could use as an example.
I mean, how about silk? We're talking about worms here. More akin to insects than, say, cows.
I was trying to think of something an insect makes that is comparable, so that we may be able to frame the question in a different light.
So tell me, would you have a problem eating discarded spider webs? What if collected and dried, they were amazing in Stir Fry?
Would it be OK to rob the spiders of their old webs? (The ones they dont live on or use anymore).
I'm sure there's a better insect secretion we could use as an example.
I mean, how about silk? We're talking about worms here. More akin to insects than, say, cows.
It is interesting that there is not the "debate" over whether or not silk is vegan. Good point, Miss!
Eh, best I can think of. I bet there's a better example yet.
But honey-eaters: what do you all think of silk?
P.S. If I go MIA from this thread it's because I need to get work done tonight instead of debating on VW. I'd much rather be here though! :(
Eh, best I can think of. I bet there's a better example yet.
But honey-eaters: what do you all think of silk?
There are countless interesting insect debates. In Seattle I was in a Jewelry shop at Pikes Market and they were selling beautiful butterfly wings that were found by natives in some rain forest somewhere. The butterflies were collected after they died naturally, and then their wings were covered with glass and made into a necklace. It was a non-profit and money went back to preserving the natural habitate of the butterflies that were still alive, as well as to the local villages, and rain forest conservation groups. As a vegan, would you feel it OK to buy this product as a gift for someone?
I think the reason it has the fine line is because honey is the one thing that you can eat that doesn't create or destroy life. What I mean by that is the bees are going to make the honey regardless of if they are on a bee farm or not, whereas a cow will only produce milk because a farmer is forcing her to (excluding nursing their young, of course), and the end 'product' (honey) is not a living thing (egg, baby cow / chicken, plant, etc).
Hens will lay eggs regardless of whether there's anyone there to collect them.
Bottom line really for me is, if it's important to call yourself vegan..then shouldn't it be important to BE vegan, and follow the principle of veganism?
Replace "vegan" and "veganism" with "Christian" and "Christianity", respectfully, and maybe you'll see how I think this concept of veganism is dogmatic.
I don't see any problem with that sentence either. If it's important to call yourself Christian..then shouldn't it be important to BE Christian, and follow the principle of Christianity?
I mean..shouldn't it? Believe me..I'm sure I understand your thoughts on religion...but isn't that one of the huge problems? So many people calling themselves Christian, and not BEING Christian. Isn't that what's important about...anything? If I feel strongly about something...and it's important to me..I'm definitely going to do the best I possibly can to align myself with that..something. I guess if that makes me dogmatic, then I'm definitely dogmatic about veganism.
Eh, best I can think of. I bet there's a better example yet.
But honey-eaters: what do you all think of silk?
There are countless interesting insect debates. In Seattle I was in a Jewelry shop at Pikes Market and they were selling beautiful butterfly wings that were found by natives in some rain forest somewhere. The butterflies were collected after they died naturally, and then their wings were covered with glass and made into a necklace. It was a non-profit and money went back to preserving the natural habitate of the butterflies that were still alive, as well as to the local villages, and rain forest conservation groups. As a vegan, would you feel it OK to buy this product as a gift for someone?
I wouldn't buy it. Is it the most terrible thing in the world? No. But I wouldn't feel comfortable using an animal as jewelry. I might even just give them money for their mission directly, if the occasion arose. I can still stay true to veganism and support a good cause at the same time. Interesting question, PK! You're making us all think. :)
Eh, best I can think of. I bet there's a better example yet.
But honey-eaters: what do you all think of silk?
There are countless interesting insect debates. In Seattle I was in a Jewelry shop at Pikes Market and they were selling beautiful butterfly wings that were found by natives in some rain forest somewhere. The butterflies were collected after they died naturally, and then their wings were covered with glass and made into a necklace. It was a non-profit and money went back to preserving the natural habitate of the butterflies that were still alive, as well as to the local villages, and rain forest conservation groups. As a vegan, would you feel it OK to buy this product as a gift for someone?
I wouldn't buy it. Is it the most terrible thing in the world? No. But I wouldn't feel comfortable using an animal as jewelry. I might even just give them money for their mission directly, if the occasion arose. I can still stay true to veganism and support a good cause at the same time. Interesting question, PK! You're making us all think. :)
KAC (KMK/AC). I forgot that I was going to comment on this...so there's ^ my comment too.
Eh, best I can think of. I bet there's a better example yet.
But honey-eaters: what do you all think of silk?
There are countless interesting insect debates. In Seattle I was in a Jewelry shop at Pikes Market and they were selling beautiful butterfly wings that were found by natives in some rain forest somewhere. The butterflies were collected after they died naturally, and then their wings were covered with glass and made into a necklace. It was a non-profit and money went back to preserving the natural habitate of the butterflies that were still alive, as well as to the local villages, and rain forest conservation groups. As a vegan, would you feel it OK to buy this product as a gift for someone?
I wouldn't buy it. Is it the most terrible thing in the world? No. But I wouldn't feel comfortable using an animal as jewelry. I might even just give them money for their mission directly, if the occasion arose. I can still stay true to veganism and support a good cause at the same time. Interesting question, PK! You're making us all think. :)
In my mind, if the market becomes good, they're going to catch alive or dead butterflies for the wings. The non-profit likely doesn't go out and gather the butterfiles, they pay people for butterflies. Those people, trying to earn a buck, are very likely to get whatever butterflies they can, alive or dead, and tell whoever is paying them whatever they want to hear.
Good point, HH! I didn't even think of that.
Eh, best I can think of. I bet there's a better example yet.
But honey-eaters: what do you all think of silk?
There are countless interesting insect debates. In Seattle I was in a Jewelry shop at Pikes Market and they were selling beautiful butterfly wings that were found by natives in some rain forest somewhere. The butterflies were collected after they died naturally, and then their wings were covered with glass and made into a necklace. It was a non-profit and money went back to preserving the natural habitate of the butterflies that were still alive, as well as to the local villages, and rain forest conservation groups. As a vegan, would you feel it OK to buy this product as a gift for someone?
I wouldn't buy it. Is it the most terrible thing in the world? No. But I wouldn't feel comfortable using an animal as jewelry. I might even just give them money for their mission directly, if the occasion arose. I can still stay true to veganism and support a good cause at the same time. Interesting question, PK! You're making us all think. :)
In my mind, if the market becomes good, they're going to catch alive or dead butterflies for the wings. The non-profit likely doesn't go out and gather the butterfiles, they pay people for butterflies. Those people, trying to earn a buck, are very likely to get whatever butterflies they can, alive or dead, and tell whoever is paying them whatever they want to hear.
That was my first thought, too, regarding who keeps tabs on where the wings really come from.
I don't think eating honey is vegan. My understanding of being vegan is not consuming animal products. Bees are animals to me. Although this is not an insect comparison, for example, if I had a neighbor with a couple of sheep that would not be killed, were well taken care of, and sheared in the hot weather (carefully and without harm at all to the sheep) I would not wear their wool, even if I weren't allergic to wool. It would still be using an animal product.
Just the other day, I ran into someone at Whole Foods I didn't know and we got into a vegan discussion (as in chatting, not a debate) and this topic came up. She eats it, I said I don't think eating honey is vegan but I didn't accuse her or argue or anything like that. I did mention, though, that in the last few months I noticed that the Whole Foods deli section no longer seems to label their deli products vegan if they have honey in them, which they had been doing just a couple of months ago. They now seem to call them vegetarian instead.
Bees are animals to me.
And not just to you! To the whole scientific community. :)
Insects = animal kingdom!
That's good that Whole Foods stopped labeling honey things as vegan. I'd be miffed if I found out something labeled "vegan" had honey in it.
Yeah, our local Indian restaurant has a lunch buffet. They have a board with the buffet items, and star the items that are NOT vegan. I noticed one day that they starred an item with honey, and thought, yay!
Okay, if the insects are the animal kingdom and being vegan is not consuming animal products, I don't understand why eating honey would be considrered vegan. It doesn't make sense.
Regarding Whole Foods, it was the first time I'd ever seen a vegetarian/vegan deli in my life and it was exciting to see several tasty-looking foods labeled vegan but now the vegan labels have dwindled due to more proper labeling but I'm glad they are doing that. I haven't looked that closely at everything because I don't buy the vegetarian foods but I know there is one yummy-looking item in particular that they used to label vegan that had honey in it that is no longer labeled vegan.
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