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Honey

Eating honey is not vegan.

Discuss.

I know this has been talked about many a time on VW, but I would like to be involved in the discussion. If you aren't interested in debating if/why/etc. eating honey is not/is vegan, then don't post!

You got backed up in a fb debate?  I think that's a first.

yeah, I know! and the girl who backed me up is friends with the fighting girl. yay!!
it was bugging me all day and when i got home i was so pleased to see how it resolved itself. i waste so much time on fb and i was going to take a break if it drained any more out of me. lol
HCM  you are on fb? find me!!!

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good for you l2a, you said your piece in a nice way and seems like you got through to her!

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I don't remember if it's this thread or any number of the preceding honey threads, but some of the resistance is that people don't think insects are animals.  Comments like that make me very concerned about the state of education.  I can't remember when I started learning about biological classifications in school, but it was early grade school. 

I always feel the need to ask them just what kingdom insects reside in, if not animalia. Usually, they have NO IDEA what I'm talking about.

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I'm not fully vegan at this point, and am fairly new to the vegetarian thing. Although I don't really like honey all that much anyway. But I have to agree that it's interesting how fired up people get about this kind of thing. It's also interesting to think about the word "vegetarian"...it has "sub categories" to fit those people that still eat eggs, cheese and milk products (ovo-lacto)or only cheese and milk products (lacto). Maybe some would be happier if there was a subcategory for vegans who eat honey?? (I'm not saying there should be, just a thought to put out there). I have to wonder if at some point in the past vegetarian was vegan at that time, but then someone decided that they wanted to continue to eat eggs, cheese and milk but still be considered vegetarian because it "doesn't kill the animal". If that all makes sense....However, as people realized that it's not only about killing the animal, but harming or hurting the animal things changed for sure. I think a lot of people are in the dark, so to speak, about honey. Many people don't realize the inhumane ways that honey is harvested.

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I don't remember if it's this thread or any number of the preceding honey threads, but some of the resistance is that people don't think insects are animals. Comments like that make me very concerned about the state of education.  I can't remember when I started learning about biological classifications in school, but it was early grade school. 

I always feel the need to ask them just what kingdom insects reside in, if not animalia. Usually, they have NO IDEA what I'm talking about.

and then there are vegans like P (well, maybe he's the only one....) who just WANT to believe that bees aren't animals. He's so freaking scared of them!  ::) Not that he wants to eat or harm them, but I don't think he wants to be associated.

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I don't remember if it's this thread or any number of the preceding honey threads, but some of the resistance is that people don't think insects are animals.  Comments like that make me very concerned about the state of education.  I can't remember when I started learning about biological classifications in school, but it was early grade school.  

I always feel the need to ask them just what kingdom insects reside in, if not animalia. Usually, they have NO IDEA what I'm talking about.

Hi VR! hadn't seen you posting in a bit (but, then, sometimes I miss things, lol)... glad to see you about! For the record-- not to restart anything-- I do think sometimes honey is the overall less-harm option, if from backyard sources, as compared to heavily monocropped/ pesticided/ plastic-packaged/ transported agave or cane sugar... BUT, there's no doubt that it isn't vegan, by definition, since it obviously does come from bees, which are in fact animals... I share HH's concern for the state of our educational system, when this seems to be somehow in question...

Related story: a few months ago, a speech therapist in the rehab facility where I was working -- this was a person with a *master's degree*-- was leading a speech therapy group, and the topic was classification: "Name x things in the category of ___"... at one point, the category was 'animals'... someone, when called on to answer, said 'Fish.' And-- I could not MAKE this shit up, which passes for reality-- there was like this 20-minute-long debate, among patients AND THERAPY STAFF, about whether fish were animals. In all seriousness... I eventually just had to leave the room, or face coworker-strangling charges... Like VR, at one point I asked, 'so what do you think they are, then? vegetables? minerals?!'

No one knew... it was quite the mystery. They were stumped.  ???

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I've been told that fish aren't animals, too.  I don't understand it.  Same with bees, other insects, etc.  I mean, WTF?  Honestly!

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I've been told that fish aren't animals, too.  I don't understand it.  Same with bees, other insects, etc.  I mean, WTF?  Honestly!

grrr... seriously.
I haven't had the chance to use this statement yet, but James has a good response for those who claim fish aren't animals / vegetarians eat fish, etc:
"Sooo, did You pick that fish from Your own fish tree, or...?"

I guess it's the same kind of ignorance that has people believing that humans aren't animals, either. :P

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I will admit that I still sometimes miss the taste of honey. And while I do proclaim that agave nectar and sorghum are great substitutes, I realize that there's nothing quite like the "real thing."

But for fuck's sake, if You're willing to give up meat, eggs, milk and all of their by-products, and will spend the extra money on plant-based alternatives even though they're not exactly the same taste/texture, You CAN give up honey. It's not that difficult.

.....I just hate how honey is such a popular ingredient in "natural" and "healthy" food, as if it's so much better than plain ol' cane or beet sugar. People honestly believe that bee barf is a health food, and it's somehow a necessary part of the human diet. ...whuh? ???

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CW, have you tried Suzanne's brand Just Like Honey?  Personally, I don't miss the flavor of honey & I am happy using agave nectar or brown rice syrup in recipes where that sweet/sticky thing is desired - but Just Like Honey is DELICIOUS & really tastes just what I remember honey tasting like!  I bought it at a local specialty shop for like $5, but I know Vegan Essentials sells it, too.  I love it!

http://store.veganessentials.com/just-like-honey-gluten-free-rice-nectar-p1265.aspx

Also (I don't think this has been posted here yet): I really like this article that explains why vegans don't eat honey.  I think it's clear, concise, and gets to the heart of the matter.  I haven't eaten honey since going vegan sort of just on principle, but until reading this article, I've often had a hard time articulating to people why.  This will help me, I think.  http://www.thisdishisvegetarian.com/2011/02/why-dedicated-vegans-think-that-honey.html

I like the fish tree comment, CW!  I have said similar things before & people are always like :-\ ??? :-[.  Haha.

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FYI, the governor of California is Jerry Brown. Schwarzenegger's term ended in Jan '11.

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Why does this have to be the only vw thread still alive?

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Hey, I've been wondering about exactly this for some time, so thanks.

I don't go around calling myself "a vegan," instead, I say that I "cook vegan" or "eat vegan." I'm not really moved by animal rights the way that others are, although I understand and respect others being moved by the plight of animals.

I don't think that bees suffer because of beekeeping. I also DO think that bees are intelligent. I actually love bees!! I read some links above claiming that bees aren't such great pollinators, or whatever, but let me tell you, in MY garden, they are the number one pollinator!! I blow them kisses and feel thankful as they go from tomato flower to tomato flower, from cucumber flower to cumcumber flower, from strawberry flower to strawberry flower. And in their place? Fruit!! It's a miracle. I love bees!!

That said, I'm not bothered by people using honey. I don't buy/use any honey myself, mostly because my vegan cookbooks don't call for it! However, there is one exception, and that is the honey that is in almost every brand of graham crackers. When I make a vegan graham cracker crust, it contains honey. I warn everyone who calls herself vegan about it.

The weird thing about me is that, actually, I would be happy if we started EATING INSECTS. It's a lot more sustainable to raise insects than to farm large mammals/birds. It's not that I think they don't have feelings -- I think they do! It's just that I don't actually think it is immoral to eat other creatures. I just don't do it myself because I think it IS immoral to eat stuff that you have no clue where it came from, didn't have to do any of the dirty work, and has a terrible effect on the environment! Not to mention, of course, the miserable lives of the animals. Although that's not my PRIMARY concern, it IS a concern, because I am moral, and I love animals as much as any regular person. But I don't really think it's wrong to, for instance, hunt deer and eat it (which I've never done/eaten). It's just that they lived the best life they could, as free beings, and they are overpopulated because we've killed off all their natural predators. When you kill off the natural predators, you have no choice but the be the last remaining predator -- you actually have a responsibility to do so, awful as it seems. In any case, I DO wish people would fill their animal protein cravings by cooking and eating insects, and I will support it when it begins to happen. Luckily for me, I don't crave animal protein hahahaha!

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i am jainny...i am new here..

dainik bhasker

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Eating honey involves the exploitation and use of animals for our own means.  It is completely unneccesary when there are so many plant based sweeteners that can provide for us (such as agave, brown rice syrup, stevia leaf, beet sugar, or just the natural sweeteners that fresh fruit provides).  The honey issue is on the same level as the "humanely raised organic" chickens someone keeps in their backyard for their eggs.  It is still an unnecessary form of exploitation of another animal for our benefit when it is completely unnecessary.  We are the only species on earth that keeps and enslaves other animals for our food, entertainment, supplies, etc.  To me it is not a gray issue.  Consuming honey is not vegan.  To me it isnt about an animals feelings or comfort.  It is about their right to autonomy over their bodies and what they create that is meant for themselves, just as we give ourselves those same rights (and generally people with any sense of morality are against slavery and exploiting workers too or they should be).  Bees work hard to make honey, and hens go through physiological processes to produce eggs.  Whether they use them or not it does not  matter.  They are not ours.

This article sums up some very good reasons to consider when exploring the use of honey and how it impacts bees:

http://gentleworld.org/3-reasons-not-to-eat-honey/

 

 

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I'm only vegetarian at the minute but I plan on going vegan after I get used to the vegetarianism first - walk before I run etc. 

However, it's not because of using animals for food that I'm going vegan. I wouldn't mind using milk, honey, eggs, etc as long as I knew they were freerange and well treated. However I won't be using milk and whatnot because I can't know that for sure. But I'm not sure how harmful it is to bees if we take some honey for them....I'm not knowledgeable on the subject though in fairness.

For example, we have 5 hens at home here. I don't have any problem using their eggs because I know they're well treated, are free to roam our big garden as they please. Basically they're pretty much our little babies - as all of our animals are. So I don't see using their eggs as harmful to them and therefore wouldn't mind. 

Commercially produced eggs, milk, etc I wouldn't be using when I go vegan though. Simply because I wouldn't know if those animals were well treated or got to roam around often. Even free range isn't animal friendly because in order to qualify as free range eggs for example, the hens only need to be given 30 - 45 mins outside in fresh air and space. For the rest of the day they could be locked up in tiny cramped spaces. 

ps. Some free range I'm sure is honestly concerned with animal friendly practices and treat them well, the problem is that consumers don't know that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Okay, clicked on one of the above links...did not realise that bees were killed. :(
Also didn't realise that they use the venom from bees sting for treating bee stings.
Also didn't know they were manipulated so thouroughly...
I'm pretty sure smaller farms tend to leave them to do their work naturally and just collect the honey....
On the other hand I don't think honey is going to be something I use much......

 

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I know honey is not vegan and I was never a big honey consumer and quite frankly found the stuff messy and bizarre in that it can be in someone's cabinet forever--but they sneak honey in so many products I get a bit annoyed scanning ingredients to find honey is the only reason why something isn't vegan...I definitely agree that it's not our (humans) place to do what we please with life on this planet, but insects in many cases are pests and it's hard for me to be that conflicted with how they are utilized.  Even in cosmetics...but I know bees aren't pests and are a quintessential part of our ecology, however, I have inadvertently killed millions (possibly more) of insects in my life--even bees and it's just conflicting to think that avoiding honey will make much difference or be meaningful to me--but regardless of my annoyances, I am vegan so I don't eat honey.

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I often wonder if people would eat "honey" if it came from ants or spiders. Some how, Bee's have been painted in the same light as dairy cows (in western culture).

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