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Honey

Eating honey is not vegan.

Discuss.

I know this has been talked about many a time on VW, but I would like to be involved in the discussion. If you aren't interested in debating if/why/etc. eating honey is not/is vegan, then don't post!

off topic.....but when Sainsbury's (major UK supermarket) first introduced a 'suitable for vegans' logo for their foods I got all excited when I saw some cheese sandwich biscuits (crackers with cheesy filling) with the suitable for vegans logo, as I had loved them pre-vegan days.  Yeah when I checked the ingredients they obviously contained cheese.
I complained and I think they were withdrawn as I never saw them again with the vegan logo on.

So maybe there are some products that are labelled as vegan that contain honey.  If it can happen with cheese it can happen with honey!

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off topic but on Shell's topic - we were so disturbed to see some bacon crackers/snack thing in Sainsbury's with the vegan logo, and checking the ingredients found that they were in fact, vegan.  Only fake piggy flavours!  There's no way I would eat something that tasted/smelled like bacon, no matter how vegan it was, but it amused us all the same.

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I think a few years ago I saw something like that - labeled vegan but contained honey... it was some sort of lotion by Kiss My Face or Alba or somebody like that. I don't think it's that companies would consider the ingredient, and decide that philosophically/environmentally/whatever, honey is vegan, but they just didn't even think honey = animal product at all. The dining commons at my college started labeling the vegan items at one point, and initially they neglected honey (but it was the same thing, it never crossed the chef's mind. I pointed out, and there was no more "vegan" honey stuff).

On the other hand, we have companies who are reluctant to label their products vegan because they don't know the origin of certain ingredients. Which is nice that they're aware, but most vegans I personally know just let the iffy things like mono- and di-glycerides slide. But yeah, a company wouldn't want to label such a product vegan if they don't really know, just like calling a product gluten-free when you really have no idea (it's risky). When TJs started their sloooow process of adding the vegan label, several customers were confused about why _____ wasn't labeled vegan when it clearly was. TJs was being extra careful and verifying manufacturing stuff/etc, which means that even now, 2 years after I stopped working there, they *still* don't have all their vegan things labeled. They just recently seemed to figure out their sugar sources, haha. Anyway, sometimes companies jump the gun and don't realize D3 isn't vegan, and other times it means only vegetables are labeled vegan. Oh well... I read the ingredients of "vegan" things anyway.

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A while ago, I purchased some lip balm that was labeled vegan, AND I read the ingredients (but missed it?)..and it contained beeswax.  ..doesn't make vegan just because it's labeled as such..sadly

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lame. what would cause them to label it as vegan if it's got beeswax? Like, what other lip balm type of ingredient could they had left out?

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A while ago, I purchased some lip balm that was labeled vegan, AND I read the ingredients (but missed it?)..and it contained beeswax.  ..doesn't make vegan just because it's labeled as such..sadly

That is seriously fucked up! I wish these companies would get in trouble for this shit!

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Yeah, it was weird. It was Alba brand. The Hawaiian stuff.

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To me, the issue of using bees for honey has to do with my anger towards humans thinking they have the right to exploit every freakin thing on the planet....the bees make honey for their own purposes. Humankind just thinks they have the right to take advantage of anything that they can get their hands on and then abuse the hell out of it...arg...

When trying to make decisions about whether something is "vegan" or ethical, I just try to ask myself whether the product was intended for me or intended for someone else (a bee's hive, a cow's calf, etc). I think what you said is a good way to keep our ethics in mind and not get bogged down by "fine lines" and this and that. Make as little impact as possible.

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Lately I've noticed some Clifbars with honey in them.
this made me super sad because I honestly thought they produced vegan foods and it makes me sad to know that some nonvegans will buy the honey kinds, as opposed to the ones without honey.

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Lately I've noticed some Clifbars with honey in them.
this made me super sad because I honestly thought they produced vegan foods and it makes me sad to know that some nonvegans will buy the honey kinds, as opposed to the ones without honey.

I am shocked by this, and I often eat Clif bars after runs. I always have at least half a dozen around. I need to check labels!! Thank you.

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Lately I've noticed some Clifbars with honey in them.
this made me super sad because I honestly thought they produced vegan foods and it makes me sad to know that some nonvegans will buy the honey kinds, as opposed to the ones without honey.

I am shocked by this, and I often eat Clif bars after runs. I always have at least half a dozen around. I need to check labels!! Thank you.

I think it's only a few, and they're named "honey _______."
I don't think they added honey to any of the older ones, though :)

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some of the Mojo clif bars and the Z bars contain honey.

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Okay, good, I don't like those. I only like the originals, and as long as they keep those the same, I'm a happy camper!  ;)b

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Really it depends on the reason you are vegan.  If you are vegan for health reasons or maybe environmental reasons, you might still eat honey.  If you are in it for animal rights, you probably won't.  I'm vegan mostly for health reasons, but also because I think the way animals are current raised and slaughtered is wrong.  I know I couldn't kill and eat an animal (barring starvation of my child or something like that), so I can't see having someone else do it for me. 

I could argue both sides and don't really know where I stand.  Honey isn't vegan.  I do have some jars that I bought from small private bee keepers.  I would never purchase the commercial stuff.  I don't really think I'd buy it again, because agave nectar is so good and cheaper.  I will use what I have though, which will probably take forever.  I'm just used to using the agave now.  Maybe I'll gift the honey in my cupboard.  It was expensive. 

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A vegan who eats honey is not a vegan, no matter whether they do it for health or animal reasons or not.

I made a facebook group for 'honey is not vegan'.

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=305180023865&ref=mf

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I got in a facebook fight with a girl I don't know. A vegan friend of mine (FB friend) posted that she was eating honey, and then her friend chimed in and the discussion ensued. Here it is, in case you are on the edge of your seat and just HAVE to read it! ;)

STATUS UPDATE:  "Vegan girl "is doing a soil fractional analysis. And eating a peanut butter, honey and banana sandwich with SON :)

Linda (the girl I dont know) : haha, always someone. omg! you eat HONEY?? LOL I suppose you lick envelopes and drive a car too!!! you're such a hippocrite ;P

L2A: it was a sincere question. not a criticism.

Linda : yeah, my second post didn't go through. i posted after that: j/k, i see your a veggie-lover too .
but many vegans eat honey. it's whereever one wants to draw the line. some don't consume processed sugar, some do. veganism isn't
all-or-nothing.

L2A vegan does mean no animal products. honey is considered vegetarian since it is an animal by-product, but not vegan. I don't really care if people eat honey, or meat for that matter, but honey is not vegan. Just sayin'.

Linda: right. true.
and envelopes, medications, and cars, also have animal products and are not vegan. yet, plenty of vegans are still indeed vegan even if they draw the line before or after those things.
would you ask her if she was really a vegan if you saw her lick an envelope? (someone actually did that to me. my blood boiled).

honey is on that line, depending on the industry.
i'm not much for honey personally. but i do see that it is one of those things that some vegans do and some don't. i wouldn't bother questioning it.
veganism isn't about where you draw that blurry line. some vegans have tatoos. some tatoo ink is not vegan. i wouldn't argue with that person who is doing so much for animals and our planet by nit-picking.
hell even if a vegan has a cracker one time that contains a milk protein. i would never exclaim "i though you were VEGAN!?"
it's not something that requires questioning, even sincerely, their very vegan philosophy.
i know i get offended when people sit and quiz me about anything in my life that MIGHT have an animal product in it, or how I might step on an ant when I leave the house. So I should choose not to walk, breathe, eat....
just sayin'.

Linda : kinda like if a devout Christian tells a white lie. Ya wouldn't say "I thought you were a Christian!"

L2A:  obviously there are things that are not vegan that cannot be avoided as you mentioned. but I think when the lines are intentionally blurry (vegans consuming animal products on purpose) it makes it more difficult for people who try to avoid all animal products. when vegetarians say they are vegetarian but sometimes eat fish and chicken, then other people think that all vegetarians eat fish and chicken, which we probably both agree is not true.
how is honey on the line? you can't really say that it is not an animal by-product. it is or it isn't. and it is.

"vegan friend", please understand that my line of thinking is not a criticism of you or your choices or trying to nit-pick you. I was honestly surprised that you consume honey and was confused. Now I'm just trying to clarify the definition of vegan with linda. ♥

I used to think honey was not a big deal but I did some research and have changed my way of thinking. If I decided to consume it again, I wouldn't try to argue that it is a vegan product.

LOVE TO ALL WHO TRY TO HELP THE PLANET IN ANY WAY!!!

Vegan Girl whose page this was on: L2A is right, though if we only had a little honey in our lives, I don't think it would be a big deal. But we have a lot (which we could replace with agave nectar). It's technically not vegan, though I'd heard that they just smoke out the bees, so the bees don't die stinging the bee-proof outfits. I actually just learned about why I shouldn't eat honey, though - and it was so obvious, but I didn't think about it - we're stealing the honey from the bees, who worked to make it and who need it. In fact, they give the bees some kind of sucky sugar-water substitute for all their hard work. Then their health suffers. So, I think we're on our last bottle now. Very timely discussion!

SO, I thought I pretty much won the discussion. Linda hasn't posted since. People can make justifications for eating honey if they want-just like they do dairy, meat, etc...but just don't call yourself VEGAN! The word was created so that there would NOT be blurry lines. sheesh.

anyway, it is this thread that changed MY mind about honey. I used to let it slide on ingredients lists occasionally, but after following this thread and links, I stopped being willy nilly about honey. Thanks for all of your research and hard work, girls and boys!

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Funny side note: this was (in hindsight, naively!) the first 'food fight' thread I ever posted in... <nostalgia! sigh>

I was surprised to find the vehemence the topic generates... felt like I'd stepped into a jesus or abortion debate! This thread is 30 pages long... wowsers. Isn't it interesting that this topic is such a firebrand?! why, do you think? frequency of misunderstanding? it's hard to think of another issue I've seen raise such ire & annoyance among/ between veggie-type folk...

Anyway-- FB is great for having convos that leave you going  ???! I think you did a good job of saying what you meant clearly, & in a friendly way.  :)

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You got backed up in a fb debate?  I think that's a first.

I don't get why people don't get it.  If a person can understand that dairy milk isn't vegan, why don't they get honey isn't vegan - it's in the same realm. 

I don't remember if it's this thread or any number of the preceding honey threads, but some of the resistance is that people don't think insects are animals.  Comments like that make me very concerned about the state of education.  I can't remember when I started learning about biological classifications in school, but it was early grade school. 

Someday I'd like to have a hive.  Not to poach the honey, but just because I like bees so much.

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Many people think that bees "collect" honey from flowers and the only issue is that we steal it from them. They don't realize that honey is repeatedly regurgitated bee vomit.

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Oy.  I hadn't heard that angle before.  It makes me sad and not even because it's a vegan issue, but because people have to make an effort to be that generally ignorant.

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