some of the Mojo clif bars and the Z bars contain honey.

Really it depends on the reason you are vegan.  If you are vegan for health reasons or maybe environmental reasons, you might still eat honey.  If you are in it for animal rights, you probably won't.  I'm vegan mostly for health reasons, but also because I think the way animals are current raised and slaughtered is wrong.  I know I couldn't kill and eat an animal (barring starvation of my child or something like that), so I can't see having someone else do it for me. 

I could argue both sides and don't really know where I stand.  Honey isn't vegan.  I do have some jars that I bought from small private bee keepers.  I would never purchase the commercial stuff.  I don't really think I'd buy it again, because agave nectar is so good and cheaper.  I will use what I have though, which will probably take forever.  I'm just used to using the agave now.  Maybe I'll gift the honey in my cupboard.  It was expensive. 

I got in a facebook fight with a girl I don't know. A vegan friend of mine (FB friend) posted that she was eating honey, and then her friend chimed in and the discussion ensued. Here it is, in case you are on the edge of your seat and just HAVE to read it! ;)

STATUS UPDATE:  "Vegan girl "is doing a soil fractional analysis. And eating a peanut butter, honey and banana sandwich with SON :)

Linda (the girl I dont know) : haha, always someone. omg! you eat HONEY?? LOL I suppose you lick envelopes and drive a car too!!! you're such a hippocrite ;P

L2A: it was a sincere question. not a criticism.

Linda : yeah, my second post didn't go through. i posted after that: j/k, i see your a veggie-lover too .
but many vegans eat honey. it's whereever one wants to draw the line. some don't consume processed sugar, some do. veganism isn't
all-or-nothing.

L2A vegan does mean no animal products. honey is considered vegetarian since it is an animal by-product, but not vegan. I don't really care if people eat honey, or meat for that matter, but honey is not vegan. Just sayin'.

Linda: right. true.
and envelopes, medications, and cars, also have animal products and are not vegan. yet, plenty of vegans are still indeed vegan even if they draw the line before or after those things.
would you ask her if she was really a vegan if you saw her lick an envelope? (someone actually did that to me. my blood boiled).

honey is on that line, depending on the industry.
i'm not much for honey personally. but i do see that it is one of those things that some vegans do and some don't. i wouldn't bother questioning it.
veganism isn't about where you draw that blurry line. some vegans have tatoos. some tatoo ink is not vegan. i wouldn't argue with that person who is doing so much for animals and our planet by nit-picking.
hell even if a vegan has a cracker one time that contains a milk protein. i would never exclaim "i though you were VEGAN!?"
it's not something that requires questioning, even sincerely, their very vegan philosophy.
i know i get offended when people sit and quiz me about anything in my life that MIGHT have an animal product in it, or how I might step on an ant when I leave the house. So I should choose not to walk, breathe, eat....
just sayin'.

Linda : kinda like if a devout Christian tells a white lie. Ya wouldn't say "I thought you were a Christian!"

L2A:  obviously there are things that are not vegan that cannot be avoided as you mentioned. but I think when the lines are intentionally blurry (vegans consuming animal products on purpose) it makes it more difficult for people who try to avoid all animal products. when vegetarians say they are vegetarian but sometimes eat fish and chicken, then other people think that all vegetarians eat fish and chicken, which we probably both agree is not true.
how is honey on the line? you can't really say that it is not an animal by-product. it is or it isn't. and it is.

"vegan friend", please understand that my line of thinking is not a criticism of you or your choices or trying to nit-pick you. I was honestly surprised that you consume honey and was confused. Now I'm just trying to clarify the definition of vegan with linda. ♥

I used to think honey was not a big deal but I did some research and have changed my way of thinking. If I decided to consume it again, I wouldn't try to argue that it is a vegan product.

LOVE TO ALL WHO TRY TO HELP THE PLANET IN ANY WAY!!!

Vegan Girl whose page this was on: L2A is right, though if we only had a little honey in our lives, I don't think it would be a big deal. But we have a lot (which we could replace with agave nectar). It's technically not vegan, though I'd heard that they just smoke out the bees, so the bees don't die stinging the bee-proof outfits. I actually just learned about why I shouldn't eat honey, though - and it was so obvious, but I didn't think about it - we're stealing the honey from the bees, who worked to make it and who need it. In fact, they give the bees some kind of sucky sugar-water substitute for all their hard work. Then their health suffers. So, I think we're on our last bottle now. Very timely discussion!

SO, I thought I pretty much won the discussion. Linda hasn't posted since. People can make justifications for eating honey if they want-just like they do dairy, meat, etc...but just don't call yourself VEGAN! The word was created so that there would NOT be blurry lines. sheesh.

anyway, it is this thread that changed MY mind about honey. I used to let it slide on ingredients lists occasionally, but after following this thread and links, I stopped being willy nilly about honey. Thanks for all of your research and hard work, girls and boys!

You got backed up in a fb debate?  I think that's a first.

I don't get why people don't get it.  If a person can understand that dairy milk isn't vegan, why don't they get honey isn't vegan - it's in the same realm. 

I don't remember if it's this thread or any number of the preceding honey threads, but some of the resistance is that people don't think insects are animals.  Comments like that make me very concerned about the state of education.  I can't remember when I started learning about biological classifications in school, but it was early grade school. 

Someday I'd like to have a hive.  Not to poach the honey, but just because I like bees so much.

Oy.  I hadn't heard that angle before.  It makes me sad and not even because it's a vegan issue, but because people have to make an effort to be that generally ignorant.

good for you l2a, you said your piece in a nice way and seems like you got through to her!

I'm not fully vegan at this point, and am fairly new to the vegetarian thing. Although I don't really like honey all that much anyway. But I have to agree that it's interesting how fired up people get about this kind of thing. It's also interesting to think about the word "vegetarian"...it has "sub categories" to fit those people that still eat eggs, cheese and milk products (ovo-lacto)or only cheese and milk products (lacto). Maybe some would be happier if there was a subcategory for vegans who eat honey?? (I'm not saying there should be, just a thought to put out there). I have to wonder if at some point in the past vegetarian was vegan at that time, but then someone decided that they wanted to continue to eat eggs, cheese and milk but still be considered vegetarian because it "doesn't kill the animal". If that all makes sense....However, as people realized that it's not only about killing the animal, but harming or hurting the animal things changed for sure. I think a lot of people are in the dark, so to speak, about honey. Many people don't realize the inhumane ways that honey is harvested.

I don't remember if it's this thread or any number of the preceding honey threads, but some of the resistance is that people don't think insects are animals.  Comments like that make me very concerned about the state of education.  I can't remember when I started learning about biological classifications in school, but it was early grade school.  

I always feel the need to ask them just what kingdom insects reside in, if not animalia. Usually, they have NO IDEA what I'm talking about.

Hi VR! hadn't seen you posting in a bit (but, then, sometimes I miss things, lol)... glad to see you about! For the record-- not to restart anything-- I do think sometimes honey is the overall less-harm option, if from backyard sources, as compared to heavily monocropped/ pesticided/ plastic-packaged/ transported agave or cane sugar... BUT, there's no doubt that it isn't vegan, by definition, since it obviously does come from bees, which are in fact animals... I share HH's concern for the state of our educational system, when this seems to be somehow in question...

Related story: a few months ago, a speech therapist in the rehab facility where I was working -- this was a person with a *master's degree*-- was leading a speech therapy group, and the topic was classification: "Name x things in the category of ___"... at one point, the category was 'animals'... someone, when called on to answer, said 'Fish.' And-- I could not MAKE this shit up, which passes for reality-- there was like this 20-minute-long debate, among patients AND THERAPY STAFF, about whether fish were animals. In all seriousness... I eventually just had to leave the room, or face coworker-strangling charges... Like VR, at one point I asked, 'so what do you think they are, then? vegetables? minerals?!'

No one knew... it was quite the mystery. They were stumped.  ???

I've been told that fish aren't animals, too.  I don't understand it.  Same with bees, other insects, etc.  I mean, WTF?  Honestly!

grrr... seriously.
I haven't had the chance to use this statement yet, but James has a good response for those who claim fish aren't animals / vegetarians eat fish, etc:
"Sooo, did You pick that fish from Your own fish tree, or...?"

I guess it's the same kind of ignorance that has people believing that humans aren't animals, either. :P