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Honey

Eating honey is not vegan.

Discuss.

I know this has been talked about many a time on VW, but I would like to be involved in the discussion. If you aren't interested in debating if/why/etc. eating honey is not/is vegan, then don't post!

If you read through this thread (I think, or another honey thread - we've had plenty), there are some people who say that insects aren't animals.  I don't even know what to say to that, because bees are clearly animals.  So, pair that with another view I've seen, "the smaller they are, the less they count" and you arrive at why people don't care.  I don't know what it would take to turn those perspectives around.  They're present even on a vegan website.

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As a short person, I resent the "the smaller they are, the less they count" mentality.  ;)

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me too!

It just makes me sad.

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shouldn't this also extend to any vegetation sprayed with harmful pesticides resulting in the deaths of millions of "animals"?  Under this assumption, isn't non-organic produce not vegan?

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shouldn't this also extend to any vegetation sprayed with harmful pesticides resulting in the deaths of millions of "animals"?  Under this assumption, isn't non-organic produce not vegan?

Technically, you're right (the same way that building a house on a field isn't vegan, or constructing a road, or using a computer......) but the point is, honey is a clear, undeniable animal product that's easy to avoid.  There really isn't much of an excuse to eat it.  Those other things are good to think about too, but not really relevant to the honey issue.

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As a short person, I resent the "the smaller they are, the less they count" mentality.  ;)

;D  I don't make the rules, I just report them.

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considering that honey bees are dying by the millions because of (among other things) the overuse of pesticides on crops, I think it relevant to the "honey" issue.

Building a house can be done ethically.  It can be done without harming or killing many animals (albeit, I'm sure some wouldn't survive the change in their habitat) but that is a far cry from the deliberate and systematic widespread killing of insects/animals. 

Equating the building of a house or the using of an appliance with the spraying of pesticides is illogical, and I feel annoyed you, KMK, are so quick to brush off what I have to share with such a simplistic and immature comparison.

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I've priced it and the same produce that costs $1.50 conventionally costs about $6.00 organic at my hfs.  Some people can eat less and make it organic, but some people are already scrimping as much as they can.  When I was in college I had $12 a week for food.  Organic wasn't an option.  Well, produce in general wasn't an option.  There's also the issue of availability.  Some people don't have access to organic produce in order to make that choice in the first place.

I advocate organic for environmental and personal health issues, but I'm not prepared to say that someome who doesn't have access to garden space to grow their own or people who flat broke or people who are mandatorily on a college's cafeteria plan or people who don't have access to organic options aren't vegan.

I get your point and agree with the importance of organic choices, but I'm not ready to oust non-organic consumers from vegan-dom.

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I get your point and agree with the importance of organic choices, but I'm not ready to oust non-organic consumers from vegan-dom.

i'm not either, i'm not about taking away the labels people want to put on themselves, it's not my job, nor do I really care,  but i don't agree we should dismiss the consumption of organic products as irrelevant to a "vegan" lifestyle, that's all.  It's interconnected, and needs to be considered.

I appreciate your well-thought response, HH.  Thank you.  It is an excellent point, as I have lived an economically-poor life for most of it and have had to abide by the "beggars can't be choosers" mentaility, but far too often, I think the "expense" of organic is used as an excuse to remain unconscious in the consequences of your (the general you, not personal you) consumer spending habits.  The expense will never lower if we don't all band together and demand more ethical and conscious agricultural practices. 

That is my point.  I'm sorry if anyone got the idea that I would oust you from vegan-dom for eating conventional produce.  That's not what I meant, if that's how it came across.

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I don't think you were ousting anyone.  I was just trying to be clear about my position.  When I first started buying organic food it was before I was vegan.  My primary consideration back then was that I didn't want the people who harvested my produce to be exposed to pesticide residue.  That's a whole other layer.

Since I'm hella off topic from honey, anyway, pesticide residues are on the crops, but they also migrate into the environment and harm a bunch of animals.  Or they are persistent.  For example, DDT breaks down to DDE, DDD, etc., but it's not water soluble, so it stays in the first couple of feet of soil.  If there's erosion during rain events there's an ongoing input of DDT consituents into the environment.  It's still a problem and it's been banned since 1972.  Where that comes into play is urban sprawl in SoCal.  Developers are (or were, before the housing crash) ripping out orchards to build homes and are disturbing DDT-contaminated soil.  UV breaks it down on the uppermost layer, but once the soil is disturbed, the game's on.  Still.  After all these years.  Pesticides are scary things.

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Equating the building of a house or the using of an appliance with the spraying of pesticides is illogical, and I feel annoyed you, KMK, are so quick to brush off what I have to share with such a simplistic and immature comparison.

The comparison is perfectly logical.  None of those things have to do with eating honey.  I agree with you that there are a lot of important things to consider about organic eating--another one to consider is the impact of pesticides on the health of the farm workers.  I just don't think it's really relevant to the honey issue--at least not directly.  Like, I think it's perfectly feasible for everyone to avoid honey (I really can't think of a dire enough reason not to), but those other things are all more complex and probably a topic for another thread.  Yes, they relate to insect well-being, but not really eating honey.  I think you have a good point, no need to get personal or annoyed about it.  

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HH, it is unbelievably refreshing to hear you speak about these things.  Thank you.  :>

It has always bothered me a great deal about pesticide residues and runoffs and the disastrous effects this is having on our overall health and the health of the planet.  Once I researched what "organic" and "fair-trade" was all about, I knew I had to realign my priorities with buying those products, as this is a reflection of what I place value in.

Monsanto's pesticides are being implicated in all sorts of health disasters, including the plight of honey bees.  OCA's been keeping me updated, if anyone is interested they can search for Monsanto Roundup.  http://www.organicconsumers.org/

they also have page dedicated to just the plight of honey bees, if anyone is interested in that as well.  very pertinent information, vegan or not.  http://www.organicconsumers.org/bees.cfm

KMK, we disagree, on many levels.  But if you insist, I'm sorry I've taken this thread so far off relevancy.

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Noah has been promised smores....tonight. He has had to pass them up on many occasions because of the marshmallows, of course.
I finally found Ricemallow Creme!

So, I told him smores for dessert.
I even conned him into going to the grocery store with me (he HATES going) because we'd be getting smores stuffs.

So, the hunt begins for decent, vegan graham crackers. Nothing in the natural section. My HFS doesn't carry them. So, I am forced to start reading the boxes from Nabisco, Kraft, etc....
Almost all of them contain honey, but what is worse, is the HFCS, the preservatives, and ingredients that I have never heard of that sound very scary and chemically. I did find one Kraft box without honey, but it had all the other crap in them. I just couldn't bring myself to buy them.

So, I ended up buying The Back to Nature Graham sticks-they have ingredients I have heard of, no preservatives, but yes, they contain honey. I'm not happy about it, but I thought those were a better choice than the GMO Krafty crackers. I certainly don't advocate for honey eating, but I felt my hands were tied.

Sure, I could have told him NO again on the Smores, but his response could easily be " I wish I wasn't a vegetarian because I miss out" type of thing...and I could lose him altogether. Looking at the big picture, I think him having this tiny bit of honey would be better than him losing interest in the lifestyle now or in the future.

I am just not going to mention the honey and let him enjoy his Smores after all these years of wondering how they tasted and what they were. In the meantime, I will hit a bigger HFS or look online for some vegan graham crackers....let me tell you, they are hard to find!

I do feel badly, so try not to ream me too hard! :-\

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I've never found graham crackers (that were vegan).  It's tough.  I was considering making them.  I found recipes like this one where I could substitute the honey with agave syrup.

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wait, you put crackers with marshmellows? huh?

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Ha!  Pumpkin pie and marshmallows with graham crackers (but not together).

We make s'mores.  It's customary to do it around campfires.  If you ate real marshmallows, you'd get a stick and jab the marshmallow onto it, let it toast over the coals or small flames, trying not to catch it on fire.  When it's toasted, you put it on graham cracker with a piece of chocolate.  Camping goodness.  With Ricemellow Creme, it's like a mushy, toasted marshmallow, but without the toasted part.

http://blog.lib.umn.edu/isler010/asianamericanstudies/smore1.jpg

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oh wow. that is all new levels of odd-ness.
though that looks more like a biscuit than a cracker, which makes it a little less weird. Still, who the hell first thought of thaat?

sorry, diversion over, please to go back to discussing appropriate topics now : )

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I haven't had a s'more in so long.  And I can't find any vegan marshmallows.
:(

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I feel like we need to sponsor oww on a trip to the States and eat pumpkin pie and make s'mores and go trick-or-treating.  (oww - it's more of a biscuit than a cracker.  It's sweetened a bit, but not as much as a cookie.)

ck, do you have access to Ricemellow?  I've had other, marshmallow shaped marshmallows and the consistency was waaay off.  Ricemellow is the way to go.

http://cn1.kaboodle.com/hi/img/2/0/0/105/2/AAAAAsusgG8AAAAAAQUh8w.jpg

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I tried the dandies marshmallows and was unimpressed, but WML and her boy told me that they got a batch just like mine, and that it wasn't a good representation of their goodness.  I might try again next summer.

In case anyone wants to make graham crackers: http://veganyumyum.com/2009/04/graham-crackers-and-dandies/
Requires a particular flour, but the rest of the ingredients are pretty standard.

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