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Honey

Eating honey is not vegan.

Discuss.

I know this has been talked about many a time on VW, but I would like to be involved in the discussion. If you aren't interested in debating if/why/etc. eating honey is not/is vegan, then don't post!

I agree, to a large extent, with KMK's previous post.
Fundamentally, there is a difference between living an ethically sound and compassionate lifestyle, and being vegan.  While most vegans are, by the nature of the choices they make, likely to also live reasonably ethically sound and compassionate lifestyles, that is not to say that everyone who lives that kind of lifestyle is also vegan.

If you consume animal products, such as honey, and make decision about your housing/car/general environmental impact in a compassionate way, then it's great that you are trying to reduce your impact and live your life in an ethically commendable manner.
Or, if you follow a vegan diet, but drive an SUV and relax on leather couches at home, then your lifestyle is probably not really doing the environment as many favours as you could be, though your eating-based choices are.

So, the two are not necessarily connected, but are also not by any means mutually exclusive. Most vegans will make ethical lifestyle choices, many compassionately minded people may also be vegan. But anyone who eats honey/animal products, however compassionate they may be, is not vegan. That's not, in any way, to say they are a bad person, because there are few enough environmentally ethical people out there that any step towards a reduced impact is to be applauded, but it's just not vegan.

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Leslovesveggies, I know what you mean about tone and text, and I apologise if anything I said seemed hostile, that was also not my intention. As I said, I commend a shift towards a compassionate lifestyle, and would not criticise anyone for that. My only point of contention is that I don't understand how consumption of animal products can be seen as vegan. I just don't.
But I also don't think non-vegans are bad people or necessarily need to be judged .

I also get that you're just arguing the point, as you said earlier, you don't actually eat honey yourself.  Don't stay away, it might seem like people are being aggressive, but that's just because debating issues tends to get people fired up - we're actually a very friendly and welcoming community.

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Yes, very well put, oww.  (In response to the first of your two posts).   

I think we get stuck in a vegan<==>ethical train of thought.  Like, that which is vegan must be good, and that which is good must be vegan.  But there is a huge difference between ethical and vegan.  Vegan shouldn't be the ultimate measure of ethics.  

If you do something that isn't vegan over and over when it is very far from necessary (and the cost of giving it up is minimal to nothing), then that's not vegan.  It might be ethical, depending on your particular code of ethics, but it isn't vegan.

No one's quality of life is drastically affected when they stop eating honey the way it might be if they stopped driving a car.  That's reductio ad absurdum logic--you take the position at hand (a person who eats honey isn't vegan) and extend it to some distant but similar scenario (a person who drives a car isn't vegan).  Really those two things aren't equal at all.  Reduction to absurdity.  We can sit here and twiddle our thumbs and philosophize all day about it, but practically speaking, that type of argument is useless in our daily lives.  You know?  Unless we're all going to stop driving or using public transport.

Don't get me wrong, I'd buy a vegan car if I could--but I can't.  But I can avoid eating honey today.

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Yeah, Les, I see what you're saying--a lot of the reasons that you are talking about probably are the reason why honey has evolved into this controversy which is, in my opinion, misguided.  It's interesting.  I hope it dies out soon because it's like being on a non-stop merry-go-round. 

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Dearest oww,

I thank you from the bottom of my biologist's heart for knowing that bees are animals.  For some reason, that's not apparent to people, as I've discovered over our multi-year honey discussion.

:)>>> ,
hh

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Oh no! haha Apparently they weren't that well thought out after all, because I never meant to imply that disagreeing and judging were the same thing, but I see now that I did. And I certainly never meant for anyone to take the word "judge" personally--I'm not pointing fingers, either. Sorry if I made anyone feel otherwise!

: ) No, it wasn't just you. Like I said, I just get tired of that argument. Like, "stop judging me and telling me it's not vegan to eat honey, or drink milk" ...or whatever. I'm not judging you as a person, I just disagree with your choice, and apparently, your idea of veganism. You know? I'm not saying you (universal) are a bad person because of it.

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Honey will NEVER be vegan. Honey is food for baby bees, not humans. Cow's milk is for baby cows. It's simple. Honey is bee puke. That's gross. Don't steal food from animals. Vegans never do that.

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Honey is food for baby bees

Baby bees eat pollen, which is high in protein.  The colony as a whole eats honey during the winter for a prolonged sugar high.

eta:  Honey goes into a special honey stomach.  It's not the same as "vomit".

http://leominsterbeeman.com/imageglossary/honeystomach.gif

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hh is so smart.   :)>>>

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lol.  But completely off from the point of the post.  I can't help myself.  I  :)>>> bees.

This is the tatoo I need, only with the bees not looking like they're using.

http://i310.photobucket.com/albums/kk404/tyrone_31/BeesKnees.jpg

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you ARE the bee's knees!

i read in your supervegwebber thingie that you're a biologist.  did i ever tell you that my major is/was biology?!

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No, I didn't know that!  Is the is/was part because you're considering changing majors?  I was in Humboldt because Humboldt State University has a strong field school component, so to learn about bees, you go outside and look at bees in their natural environment.  It was cool.  The school had an Apis mellifera hive, but there were local solitary bees and my favorite, bumblebees.  I mean, how freakin' cute is this gentle giant?

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quite cute!

the "is/was" is because i'm not currently in school, but when i am able to afford to go back i will be continuing my biology degree.  i was scheduled to go back to school in january 2008... but then i got into that awful car wreck that just wrecked everything.  so now i cannot afford to go to school, but hopefully after my settlement i won't be struggling as much.

what do you do as a biologist?  i've considered that path.

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I don't really do that much biology work.  I was hired at my job as a biologist, but I do more general science.  I'm probably more chemisty focused than anything else now.

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My simple answer is that bees are in the animal kingdom, and I don't use beings in the same kingdom as me.

When I went vegan, I never once had a second thought about honey.
I just knew it came from bees, and vegans didn't eat things that came from animals.

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My simple answer is that bees are in the animal kingdom, and I don't use beings in the same kingdom as me.

When I went vegan, I never once had a second thought about honey.
I just knew it came from bees, and vegans didn't eat things that came from animals.

Hooray!! : )

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I had no idea this was even up for debate until I read this thread. I just assumed it was a no-no. Of course, that may be because I'm the only vegan I know.

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I'm the only vegan I know.

... in real life.  You now have all of us, cyber-wise.  :) 

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I had no idea this was even up for debate until I read this thread. I just assumed it was a no-no. 

It's weird, isn't it? I like your assumption.

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I didn't feel like starting a new thread, but I read this article in the newspaper today about an attack on some beehives that has potentially killed hundreds of thousands of bees - and though that fact is mentioned, the entire point of the article is financial. The act is referred to as 'vandalism', not animal cruelty, and the owners talk about the fact that they didn't have insurance, and how much it will cost them to replace.

All the while, I sit here quietly thinking to myself: but what about the beeees? 

It's just such backwards logic.  If someone drove a tank through an animal shelter and squashed a hundred puppies, people would care about the puppies as much/more than the damaged shelter. Why not here?

Article : http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10588599

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