I just had a HUGE argument with my ag adviser over this. He says bees arent even animals, and honey and beeswax have nothing to do with being vegan. Now he's been really supportive with me over the whole vegetarian/vegan thing on trips and taking me to get food and all, but he told me he taught me better.
UGH.
I said bees are harmed and die in the process, he said that was bs and people arent going around killing the bees (i dont think he fully understood what i was saying and im pretty sure he thinks that i think beeswax is like, mashed up bees or something).
So now i'm going to read this WHOLE thread to help back me up for part 2 of this debate tomorrow.
He told me to bring proof to him that bees are animals (which is easy, because, they are... what are they then, a plant?!?). and i need more to back this up.. Ugh..

kmk: Just to clarify, I wasn't really referring to accidentally killing animals... More like purposely stepping on/squashing them.  And I totally agree with you (and t_b) about the honey that is commercially produced... They give the bees crap sugar water and squish them when they handle the hives.  But regarding local, accountable, organic honey produces who are kind to the bees and only take excess honey, I have no qualms.

I respect everyone here, and all the other strict vegans out there, for choosing to cut out all animal products. :)  I did too, for a short time.  But when I really got down to thinking about it and considering the ethics, biology, and ecology of it all, I realized that I would rather make personal dietary decisions based on a lot of thinking, than simply adhere fully to the "vegan" label because I am already 99% there.  (I do use the word among nonvegans, however, because I don't want to get into the nitty gritty details.)

Regarding honey in premade products (kmk mentioned graham crackers):  I avoid it.  Like many people said before, there is no telling where it came from, or how the bees were treated.

In general, I believe that it is a personal choice for everyone, and will I respect someone whatever they choose, because we all know that we vegans put a lot more thought into our food than most other people. :)

kmk: Just to clarify, I wasn't really referring to accidentally killing animals... More like purposely stepping on/squashing them. 

Do vegans do this?  None that I know do.  So I fail to see the hypocrisy here.  I also fail to see how finding hypocrisy within oneself or others (i.e., an action with conflicts with a purported code of ethics) is reason to abandon the ethic in favor of the errant action.  That makes no sense to me. 

For instance, if I lie about something, but deep down I believe that it is wrong to lie, would it be fair to look upon me and say, "She is being a hypocrite.  There must be something wrong with her moral code because she hasn't followed it perfectly--get rid of the idea that lying is bad."  Of course not. 

But when I really got down to thinking about it and considering the ethics, biology, and ecology of it all, I realized that I would rather make personal dietary decisions based on a lot of thinking, than simply adhere fully to the "vegan" label because I am already 99% there. 

I guess I wonder what were these compelling ethical, biological, and ecological arguments which persuaded you to change your ways from not eating honey to eating it.  All the information I've seen suggests that eating honey is unethical (provided a code of ethics which assumes animals have inherent rights), biologically unfounded, and ecologically irresponsible. 

This thread got me thinking about the words "personal choice" because people use that so often in reference to their choice to consume honey.  Aren't all decisions we make "personal decisions," unless someone else decides for us?  You choose everything you do.  To say that something is a personal choice seems redundant and is an attempt to exempt oneself from the prevailing ethical framework.  This is why I don't usually say, "Being vegan is my personal choice."  No, it's my choice.  Furthermore, saying it is personal removes us from the fact that this "personal" decision has consequences.  i.e., "It is my personal decision to eat meat"--it removes us from the bigger picture.  No, it is your personal decision to wear purple on Tuesdays.  Anyway, just a curious semantics thing.  It's interesting how we do that. 

Wisely deleted comment.

Wait, you said something and then deleted it?  Awwww.

Wisely deleted comment.

Wait, you said something and then deleted it?  Awwww.

I deleted it just before I posted it.  I'm working on a little over four hours of sleep and I'm cranky as hell.

I think that's more of the real reason why some people continue to eat honey after eliminating dairy/eggs/meat; because many people don't includes bees/insects in their idea of "animals." We think furry, feathered, scaled. If bees aren't animals, honey isn't an animal product. People don't give them the same (or even close to) the ethical consideration of vertebrates. That's why people bring up bee intelligence/society when making the case for not eating honey - to show that they are just like us fuzzy creatures.
I could see a honey-vegan buying (genuine) sponge too (the "lowest" animal). But probably not eat seafood (also invertebrates). It's still the same double standard that omnis have (humans vs other animals) but shifted over (vertebrates vs invertebrates) instead of being eliminated entirely.

It's still the same double standard that omnis have (humans vs other animals) but shifted over (vertebrates vs invertebrates) instead of being eliminated entirely.

Thank you!  Yes.  That's exactly it.  We can debate the pros and cons of honey harvesting as much as we want, but it all boils down to what you said.

I also like hh's comment about size--suppose bees were larger invertebrates.  I doubt many honey-eating veg*ns would eat lobster secretions.  Honey is no different--honey production just happens on a smaller scale.

In general, I believe that it is a personal choice for everyone, and will I respect someone whatever they choose, because we all know that we vegans put a lot more thought into our food than most other people. :)

I think we need to set a higher bar for ourselves.  Just because someone gives a lot of thought to their food choices doesn't mean they have a free pass to perpetuate misconceptions about honey production.  That's irresponsible from a vegan perspective.  And that's not me being disrespectful--I can respect a person's character without respecting all their actions.

I didn't like that movie.

He told me to bring proof to him that bees are animals (which is easy, because, they are... what are they then, a plant?!?). and i need more to back this up.. Ugh..

Bees absolutely are animals. There is no debating this. So are some things you wouldn't even think of: sponges, sea corals, sea anemones....

Here's a university-based source:

http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/index.html