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Honey

Eating honey is not vegan.

Discuss.

I know this has been talked about many a time on VW, but I would like to be involved in the discussion. If you aren't interested in debating if/why/etc. eating honey is not/is vegan, then don't post!

I agree, though, rainbowdust, that it is not vegan for us to buy things produced in sweatshops.  Yes, there are alternatives, so we should do our best to find those.  But like hh said, that doesn't give us license to throw honey out the window.  That doesn't make much sense to me.

oh, i wasn't saying that it gave anyone a license to through anything out the window.  i was just saying that that's something that i don't think a lot of us consider.  i've only known ONE vegetarian (he wasn't even vegan!!!) who didn't consider it to fit into his beliefs (based off of the ethical treatment of animals aspect) to have anything that wasn't made 100% in the usa.  but then he would be faced with things like: i can only find two coats that fit my needs... one is leather but made in the usa and the other is non-leather but made in china... which one is more ethical to purchase?   i would personally go with the non-leather sweatshop jacket with the thought that i don't think those people died making it but i know the animal died making the leather one... but to him, they were both very important issues and carried equal weight.

all of these people are arguing in circles, throwing labels, & passing judgement, but i bet that if you looked through their things, they, themselves, are also not "truly vegan" to the best of their abilities.

sort of like that saying, "people in glass houses should not cast stones".

i was just bringing up a point that i don't think enough people consider.  i know that i never considered it until i met my friend and he had that jacket dilemma and explained it to me.

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all of these people are arguing in circles, throwing labels, & passing judgement, but i bet that if you looked through their things, they, themselves, are also not "truly vegan" to the best of their abilities.

A while ago we listed things in our lifestyle that challenged the vegan label.  I don't think any of us are throwing stones in glass houses.  I think that we're more debating a specific issue.  But you're right - debates like this generally go in circles.  I don't generally change my mind as a result of a debate, but it gives me other perspectives to think about.

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Yeah, that's a legit dilemma.  Good for your friend for being so conscious of where the things he buys come from!

I don't think anyone is being judgmental.  I'm not going to say, "Oh, so and so is such a jerk because she eats honey."  It's just a matter of being accurate and purposeful with our language so that we can be good diplomats for veganism.

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all of these people are arguing in circles, throwing labels, & passing judgement, but i bet that if you looked through their things, they, themselves, are also not "truly vegan" to the best of their abilities.

A while ago we listed things in our lifestyle that challenged the vegan label.  I don't think any of us are throwing stones in glass houses.  I think that we're more debating a specific issue.  But you're right - debates like this generally go in circles.  I don't generally change my mind as a result of a debate, but it gives me other perspectives to think about.

Agreed.  I enjoy thinking about things fresh again and hearing everyone's reasoning.  Everyone brings a different point of view to the table.

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all of these people are arguing in circles, throwing labels, & passing judgement, but i bet that if you looked through their things, they, themselves, are also not "truly vegan" to the best of their abilities.

This statement is a bit offensive, but I understand what you are trying to say. I am vegan (truly) to the best of my abilities. I strive to be better each day. I do think about the human exploitation issue as well. I  love to buy made in the USA (downtown LA  ;) ) organic cotton...but don't really have a need to buy a lot of clothing since I already have so much. I do use products/things that I had before becoming vegan because I do not believe in waste, but there are definitely some products that I do not feel comfortable wearing, such as wool/leather. It's been said several times that we can't be perfect, but once again...we can do our best.

I found another great passage from Being Vegan pg. 9:

Labels can be valuable designations for clarity. When used as such, they do not condemn or condone individual choices; instead, they elucidate, identify, and describe.

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all of these people are arguing in circles, throwing labels, & passing judgement, but i bet that if you looked through their things, they, themselves, are also not "truly vegan" to the best of their abilities.

This statement is a bit offensive, but I understand what you are trying to say. I am vegan (truly) to the best of my abilities.

it wasn't meant to be offensive.  it was meant to be mind opening.  i'm sorry if it did, in fact, offend anyone.

it's great that you do what you can to help out people, too.  not everyone does, but i don't think that's because they don't care.  i think it's more ignorace... they just simply never knew or realized it.

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off topic, but i don't know how else to tell her this since i don't have a paid membership:

KMK, i just checked out your profile which lead me to your food blog.

man, i love the way you write about foods!  you make it sound so exciting!
and your pictures are absolutely gorgeous! 

have you ever considered writing a vegan cookbook and including any of those pictures?
or perhaps even writing food reviews for a vegan magazine or newsletter (and don't
forget the pictures there, either!)?

i think if non-vegans stumbled upon your site, they'd be excited enough to give it a try!

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it wasn't meant to be offensive.  it was meant to be mind opening.  i'm sorry if it did, in fact, offend anyone.

it's great that you do what you can to help out people, too.  not everyone does, but i don't think that's because they don't care.  i think it's more ignorace... they just simply never knew or realized it.

;)b

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;)b hh

In addition, I think this is a great passage from Being Vegan by J. Stepaniak (pg. 5):

There are no such entities as "part-time vegans," "partial vegans," or "dietary vegans." People who just have a plant-based diet are not vegans; they are total vegetarians (her emphasis). Until one's commitment extends beyond the scope of food, the word vegan does not apply....Unlike vegetarianism, being vegan does not entail simply what a person does or doesn't eat-it comprises who a person is.

............vegans do subscribe to a shared tenet that builds a collective awareness. It is this coalescence of consciousness that creates a bond among vegans and has the power to transcend cursory distinctions. In the final analysis, despite our diversity, there is only one type of vegan-a person who is committed to and practices reverence and respect for all life."

But the problem I have with this is that it is opinion added onto the flat out definition. What HH gave is basically just like the dictionary defn. I think the dictionary defn includes the just diet part because the defn is defined by how the word is commonly used, even if it isn't totally correct. I just find issue with motivation being put into the defn. For ex, to limit harm. Vegans can be vegans for all reasons.

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What I find supremely ironic is that most of the people here (remote regions of Costa Rica that don't even exist on maps) are "vegan"  by default. They don't call themselves that, of course, and they would eat meat if they could (and probably dream about the day), but their day to day lives are sooo much more "vegan" than even the die-hard ones in the west. They live on rice and beans, they make their own clothing and furniture, they don't drive, they grow their own food, they respect if not revere nature. And oh, they don't wear shoes so the whole china or rubber argument is out :p You get the point! Funny how HARD we have to TRY just to live like "underdeveloped" nations.  Really, I think these guys have us beat and they are way ahead of us in so many ways.  :-D

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Did you post that from your treehouse?

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Yes, I am posting this from the top floor of a tree house right now, listening to the Rolling Stones and unwinding for the day.

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Yes, I am posting this from the top floor of a tree house right now, listening to the Rolling Stones and unwinding for the day.

What wound you up?

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Yes, I am posting this from the top floor of a tree house right now, listening to the Rolling Stones and unwinding for the day.

What wound you up?

Eek, well I don't want to hijack this thread! But we spent the day trying to pick out my lot. Translation: I hiked through thick jungle for hours, often up steep hills, across wobbly bridges, through creeks, rivers and areas with no paths, scaled obstacles -- sometimes with huge pits below -- but anyway, I think I have it narrowed down now. I'm going to re-visit my top choices tomorrow. There is no infrastructure here yet, except at the base area, so it's pure jungle living. We are drinking filtered rain water, no hot water, using gas hotplates etc.

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I guess my problem with the definition of vegan being so fluid and broad is that, if we kept that up, sooner or later all the people who eat free range happy meat and whatnot would be calling themselves vegan, which would be a severe detriment to the movement.  We have to make these distinctions; I think they are necessary to having a unified, coherent cause.

Thanks for the compliments, rainbowdust!  My blog is very amateur, and I mostly use other people's recipes.  But I would definitely enjoy doing something more formal.  I'll have to keep that in mind.

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But I would definitely enjoy doing something more formal.  I'll have to keep that in mind.

Website for our cafe!

PK,  ;)b

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Don't worry about hijacking it, pk.  I think we're about done.

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Don't worry about hijacking it, pk.  I think we're about done.

Indeed.  I'm done.  Good show!

But I would definitely enjoy doing something more formal.  I'll have to keep that in mind.

Website for our cafe!

Indeed^2.

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Just to clarify, I eat about one teaspoon in total of honey a year, but I still consider myself vegan.  I really don't care about other vegans judging me because I've been over that nazi vegan police stuff for a long time now.  I would never concider myself "mostly vegetarian" and consider someone else "vegan" if they didn't eat something I did and vice versa.  It really shouldn't matter what other people do with their bodies, because people are allowed the freedom to make their own choices.  I don't know maybe I just feel attacked, like I do by most vegans, which is why I tend to not hang around with them IRL, but I really don't see what the big deal is. 

I don't allow myself honey because I am allergic to bees, I was just mentioning it because someone else did and I wanted to contribute to that part of the conversation.  I don't eat honey because I don't care about insect suffering, I just don't see the harm in eating (probably local organic) honey in bread once in a while.  I am educated (like I said before) in honey production and I agree with some of it and disagree with other things.  Personally, if I wasn't appaled at eggs (ew) I would probably eat local organic eggs as well.  But, I don't and it is not because I am afraid of not being vegan, but because they are unhealthy and pretty gross and I don't like eating them. 

I can't honestly say why I don't see honey as being gross.  Maybe it's because I have eaten countless insects while I am sleeping, just as everyone else has, and it is sort of on that level for me.

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I don't know maybe I just feel attacked, like I do by most vegans, which is why I tend to not hang around with them IRL, but I really don't see what the big deal is. 

1.  We're not attacking people, we're debating an issue.  (Well, we were debating an issue.  We're kind of done now.)

2.  You know so many vegans IRL that you can choose not to hang with them?  I don't know any other vegans IRL.  I've only met two other vegans, total.

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