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Dear Vegweb.......something that really bothers me.

First of all I truly do not mean to offend anyone here –just offer up something that has been really bothering me lately. I also don’t mean it to be a debate – so I ‘m not posting it on the debate thread.

I have been a member of VW for a long time. I’m not the most frequent poster, but I do like to read the boards and truly admire and appreciate the respect with which people treat each other. In the last couple of months, however, I have noticed that a great many threads somehow take a turn into sexual innuendo – or just outright discussion of sex.

And I know, I know, if I don’t want to be part of it I can choose not to read it – and often I don’t. But it sometimes pops up randomly in the middle of an otherwise food or chat-related thread I am enjoying. And it sometimes highjacks another thread altogether.

I’m not meaning this a as a judgement or lecture or sermon or anything else – I just wanted to express that this makes me sad and sometimes even kind of angry to hear sex thrown around so flippantly. I KNOW not everyone shares my viewpoint on this and I don’t expect them to – but I have a really hard time understanding how one can be so casual about the only thing that they can give to another person that is uniquely theirs. Additionally, I strongly believe that even though one may not initially realize or admit it, there are a lot of emotional and psychological consequences to cheapening sex to something purely physical and meaningless – maybe not right away – but further down the road. At the very least, this seems like it should be a private discussion be treated with a little bit of discretion and reverence. As a person who did not get to choose where and when to give that part of myself away – I know that part of this is my own issue – and I am dealing with that in the best way I know how. I am a much stronger person than I was six months ago and even typing this is taking a LOT of guts for me.

Again, this is not meant to be a finger-point, accusation or judgement. In many other areas of my life I agree to disagree peacefully, and this is no different. Even though I am sure I am in the minority here, I just really felt the need to express my true viewpoint on this.

Peace,
PP

This is a hard topic.  Mainly because there are things expressly stated as "Not Debate" that beat at my head to contradict them and thus step into debate.  Stating "Not Debate" repeatedly while posting these types of things doesn't stop the thread from becoming a debate, it simply means you are not willing to allow others to express their own opinions on the matter.  Which is what HH was stating with her comment which was dead on in my eyes.

Stating "Please do not assume the whole of VegWeb is comfortable viewing sexually orientated threads."  is fine.   Stating "There’s another person involved, a human being with feelings that deserves dignity and respect." is telling us that anyone who has mentioned sex is disrespectful to the partner noted in the discussion.  And that is what instigates debate.

My only other point other than "Everyone is entitled to their opinion" is simply this.  If you think that the only thing you have to "give to another person that is uniquely theirs" you are limiting yourself.  Uniquely yours?  Emotions, thoughts, ideas, smiles, tears... and so on is ALL uniquely yours.  Don't limit yourself or sell yourself or your partner short*.

*My apologies if that is debate, but I wanted my opinion to be noted.*

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My only other point other than "Everyone is entitled to their opinion" is simply this.  If you think that the only thing you have to "give to another person that is uniquely theirs" you are limiting yourself.  Uniquely yours?  Emotions, thoughts, ideas, smiles, tears... and so on is ALL uniquely yours.  Don't limit yourself or sell yourself or your partner short*.

*My apologies if that is debate, but I wanted my opinion to be noted.*

That is sweet, Cali. I puffy heart you still.

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would it be better if we started a new thread/moved this thread on over to the debate board?

you know, the ethical-ness of posting sexual content on a site accessible to kids, or posting about sexual experiences with another person who may or may not be ok with the publicity, posting sexual stuff vs. other people's comfort level. Seems like we have far enough opinions on this the sustain a thread!  ;)b

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would it be better if we started a new thread/moved this thread on over to the debate board?

you know, the ethical-ness of posting sexual content on a site accessible to kids, or posting about sexual experiences with another person who may or may not be ok with the publicity, posting sexual stuff vs. other people's comfort level. Seems like we have far enough opinions on this the sustain a thread!  ;)b

If you want to keep talking about it, do it! No harm. It seems that people are wanting to talk about it. I think this thread should be done anyway (the way that it's going), so make a new one if you wish to continue.

:)

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This is a hard topic.  Mainly because there are things expressly stated as "Not Debate" that beat at my head to contradict them and thus step into debate.  Stating "Not Debate" repeatedly while posting these types of things doesn't stop the thread from becoming a debate, it simply means you are not willing to allow others to express their own opinions on the matter.  Which is what HH was stating with her comment which was dead on in my eyes.

Stating "Please do not assume the whole of VegWeb is comfortable viewing sexually orientated threads."  is fine.   Stating "There’s another person involved, a human being with feelings that deserves dignity and respect." is telling us that anyone who has mentioned sex is disrespectful to the partner noted in the discussion.  And that is what instigates debate.

My only other point other than "Everyone is entitled to their opinion" is simply this.  If you think that the only thing you have to "give to another person that is uniquely theirs" you are limiting yourself.  Uniquely yours?  Emotions, thoughts, ideas, smiles, tears... and so on is ALL uniquely yours.  Don't limit yourself or sell yourself or your partner short*.

THANK YOU.

Really, you can't throw around a judgmental opinion like that.  You implied that many people here are cheap, careless, thoughtless, and inconsiderate.  People are going to push back.  Even if you just wanted to be heard.  It's like a hit and a run--slap someone in the face and say, "Look, I wasn't looking for a fight.  Just wanted to express how I feel about what you do."

We're really at an impasse here.  A lot of times I think, What Would PPK Do?, since they are a large, well-run, peaceful board.  This thread would have been locked at the first post.  Nothing productive can come of it. 

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Your comment is rude and completely out of line.

*buzz*  I'm sorry, you formed your chit chat in the form of a debate.  You lose.

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Your comment is rude and completely out of line.

*buzz*  I'm sorry, you formed your chit chat in the form of a debate.  You lose.

Geez...I think I might cry now.  HH says I lose.  Like I give a crap.

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That last post of mine wasn't serious.  It was a joke, because this thread is way over the line.  I'm not sure what your problem with me is, but since you want it to all be serious, here's the serious reply.

I appreciate people making conscious efforts to not turn this into debate and am sorry if some of my statements came across like I wanted one.

Reflections coming from someone who already doesn't post about sex on here: 

This is your one freebie to hide behind the Chit Chat board and suggest that people here have moral problems and are violating children and the trust of partners.  I don't want you to assume that slinging crap and cowering behind a board is OK with everyone.  Just so you know.

Your comment is rude and completely out of line. 

If you really want to get technical, I think your last comment to PP was in violation of forum rule #1...about not flaming or posting with the intent to entice a flame in return.

Um… I think “Your comment is rude and completely out of line.” is flaming me with the intent to entice a flame in return.  I spoke in general terms about the hiding behind a board.  You specifically said “your,” which means you’re insulting me specifically.

What gives you the right to decide that someone's statements are "slinging crap" and that they're "cowering" behind a board just because you don't like it or agree with it and tell them that's their "one freebie"?

Those are two issues.  If someone is going to make statements about other people’s perceived character, they shouldn’t structure their comments in such a way that the people being addressed don’t have an avenue for response. 

The second issue is as straight forward as it sounds.  The next time pp posts something that questions people’s character and limits their responses, then I’ll do what I can to move it over to the debate board.  If you look at this thread so far I’m not sure how you could argue that one.

Why are you assuming that I don’t like or agree with her?  I don’t post about sex on vw and in this very thread I have supported her voice.

PP never once said or suggested that people on here have moral problems or violate children.

I just wanted to express that this makes me sad and sometimes even kind of angry to hear sex thrown around so flippantly. I KNOW not everyone shares my viewpoint on this and I don’t expect them to – but I have a really hard time understanding how one can be so casual about the only thing that they can give to another person that is uniquely theirs. Additionally, I strongly believe that even though one may not initially realize or admit it, there are a lot of emotional and psychological consequences to cheapening sex to something purely physical and meaningless – maybe not right away – but further down the road. At the very least, this seems like it should be a private discussion be treated with a little bit of discretion and reverence.

Then there’s the idea of it being a public forum and us all being adults. Yes, I do agree that one can avoid threads with obviously sexual titles and skim through other stuff you don’t want to read. However, unlike religious or political ideas, sex is an act that takes two people – its not only or entirely yours. There’s another person involved, a human being with feelings that deserves dignity and respect. Maybe it meant nothing to you – but maybe it meant a lot to the other person. Would you want something that personal available to the whole world? That’s why I feel uncomfortable with it appearing so often on a public forum.

Also – you don’t have to be an adult to read these boards. And while I would by no means classify Vegweb as even remotely sexually explicit – the fact is that you don’t know who is reading this. Teachers – would you want your students coming across this stuff? Parents – your kids?

The fact of the matter is there ARE children on here and some of the comments and threads are inappropriate.  Case in point..."who needs the sexiest vegetarian?"...the link in that thread is a clear violation of forum rule number 2 which states that posts or links to pornographic material is prohibited.  That link is giving kids easy access to material they shouldn't be viewing.  And quite frankly I don't want to hear/see people talking about masturbating with vegetables and then have to view pictures of said vegetables afterword.  If people want to do that, fine..that's their bag, but not everyone wants to know about it.  I think having some common courtesies when posting is not a lot to ask.

(You’re confusing threads.)  No one is asking you to be less conservative, but I don’t think it’s our responsibility to confine ourselves to your more conservative comfort level.

PP's comments are no different than any number of other people on here not wanting certain topics/ behaviors related to food brought up because it might trigger eating disorders.  Those people are in the minority but still their requests are respected.  The same arguement can be given to them...don't read them. 

I don’t understand your point.  There is a whole thread devoted to eating disorders and I see ED issues sprinkled throughout food threads.  I don’t know what you mean to say here.

I don't see why you think PP should have to debate her feelings or desires or it should have to go on a certain spot in the forum.  She wasn't asking for debate...she was simply stating how she felt.

No one has said that pp has to debate her feelings.  I think we’re unanimously in support of her stating her feelings (that’s not based on actually having talked to anyone about it, but from the general flavor of the thread).  It’s that if she says that people on the board are “cheapening sex” and that discussing sex openly denies a partner “dignity and respect,” if someone is going to say that about someone else, then the other people should be able to respond as openly.

I'm troubled by how an equally open response would be something other than absolutely appropriate.

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sex, sex, sex, sex, sex............... shit I'd rather have a sit down and a nice cup of tea these days to be honest!

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I worked with someone who preferred to use that time to eat Hershey's chocolate bars (the plain ones).  If he was going for a substitute, at least he could have gone with good chocolate.

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Ok, I made a thread:

http://vegweb.com/index.php?topic=26438.0

And I will be very sad if no one uses it.

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Wow, I am sorry if I made anyone feel hurt or judged with my choice of words. I thought I had made it clear numerous times that I realized that people had different opinions about this and I was not judging others for their choices or actions.

This post was not meant to make others feel as if I thought they had moral problems or violated children. That is not true at all. I posted open-letters style here on this seperate thread section of forum because a) I thought more people would read/consider it and b) I did not expect it to turn into debate. You know how sometimes you just want someone to listen to something that is bugging you? Just listen, and really consider that there might be another way than their own, without jumping to their first rebuttal. Maybe that's even how some of us came into veganism, even if we thought the idea was ridiculous at the time. I am a great many things, good and bad, far beyond my thoughts about sex - and I know that everyone else on here is as well.

Thanks to all for listening and allowing me to express these feelings. For most of my (in real) life and especially when I questioned the seemingly prevailing majority on this issue, I have been told and made to feel that my ideas were crazy, wrong, stupid, unintelligent, and weak. Thank you for not making me feel that way on here, even if you don't agree with me.

Peace,
PP

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PP, I think the snag was this:

We are interacting in an internet forum.  You told us what you thought about not only internet etiquette (fine), but also about lifestyle choices.  The internet etiquette part is something we can all work through, but what are we to do if you are telling some of us that our lifestyle choice makes you sad and even angry?  Ya know?  Just listen? 

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If you think that the only thing you have to "give to another person that is uniquely theirs" you are limiting yourself.  Uniquely yours?  Emotions, thoughts, ideas, smiles, tears... and so on is ALL uniquely yours.  Don't limit yourself or sell yourself or your partner short*.


I can't believe L2A and I are the only ones to say anything about this.

Cali, that is beautiful and you are so right. I hope that anyone who has been hurt in the past because of bad judgments or circumstances beyond their control will read that and think "Wow, that's true! I have more to give than just my body."

You just gained super-respect from me. I dunno if that means anything. But anyway.

-----------------

A different subject altogether: This is the internet. There comes a point where you have to realize no matter how close you may feel to some people online, they will never be fully "human" toward you. The anonymity of the internet is like a free pass to be an insensitive jerk to some folks.

You have to put up your figurative wall and take care of yourself. I'm glad you did share your feelings, PP. I think people should be given the benefit of the doubt, too. Give them a chance to listen to you and maybe be considerate. However, I've been in rotten situations in my life, and I've come across things in online communities that brought up bad memories and made me so uncomfortable I thought I would break down.

At some point, you've got to just take care of yourself. You've got to close the thread. You've got to look away. That doesn't make it right for people to do and say what they want, but it keeps you sane.

And sometimes a PM goes further than an all-hands-on-deck thread. When you confront someone personally where they're not showing off for internet buddies, you get a bit more of the "real human being."

I apologize if anyone feels I'm being harsh. I've been online a long time, on forums and in multiplayer games. I'm just trying to give PP some advice to live by. You've got to be your own guardian, that's all I'm saying. You can't count on other people to do it for you, especially online.

Now, this comes from someone who met the love of her life online... so make of it what you will, I guess. I suppose it means I've met some of the worst, and a couple of the best.

;)b

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If you think that the only thing you have to "give to another person that is uniquely theirs" you are limiting yourself.  Uniquely yours?  Emotions, thoughts, ideas, smiles, tears... and so on is ALL uniquely yours.  Don't limit yourself or sell yourself or your partner short*.

I can't believe L2A and I are the only ones to say anything about this.

Cali, that is beautiful and you are so right. I hope that anyone who has been hurt in the past because of bad judgments or circumstances beyond their control will read that and think "Wow, that's true! I have more to give than just my body."

You just gained super-respect from me. I dunno if that means anything. But anyway.

I don't want to be involved in this discussion, so hadn't said anything, but Cali's post caught my attention too and I think it's so so so true. We are told again and again by so many sources that as young women our most valuable asset is sexuality - and somehow in so many cases that very thing is what is used to control us, excuse terrible treatment of us, take away our other assets and leave us feeling inadequate. It's seriously fucked.

We do have so much more to give,  and those other things are infinitely more unique and therefore uniquely valuable - everyone has a body, but nobody will ever ever ever be the same person as someone else, that's worth a lot.

I don't have a "side" in this discussion/nondiscussion, I think everyone involved has a fair point.

Just want to say, PP, I admire your courage in taking this step in your healing process. If you ever need to talk to someone who gets it, let me know. x

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If you think that the only thing you have to "give to another person that is uniquely theirs" you are limiting yourself.  Uniquely yours?  Emotions, thoughts, ideas, smiles, tears... and so on is ALL uniquely yours.  Don't limit yourself or sell yourself or your partner short*.


I can't believe L2A and I are the only ones to say anything about this.

We were all nodding from our computers.  Of course her comment is going to be insightful.  It's Cali.  She's our resident sage.

We are told again and again by so many sources that as young women our most valuable asset is sexuality - and somehow in so many cases that very thing is what is used to control us, excuse terrible treatment of us, take away our other assets and leave us feeling inadequate.

I've wondered for a while if that's why some women in relationships treat their partners horribly - because they're not taught that everything you share in a relationship is important.

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If you think that the only thing you have to "give to another person that is uniquely theirs" you are limiting yourself.  Uniquely yours?  Emotions, thoughts, ideas, smiles, tears... and so on is ALL uniquely yours.  Don't limit yourself or sell yourself or your partner short*.


I can't believe L2A and I are the only ones to say anything about this.

We were all nodding from our computers.  Of course her comment is going to be insightful.  It's Cali.  She's our resident sage.

Awww shucks!  *blushes*    :oh:

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Maybe I'm an asshole, but I don't care. If you have a problem with the things posted on this board, LEAVE. I don't give two shits about 95% of you or what you want and do not want to read. Cry me a river, call me a prick, ban me. There are reasons I don't post much on this board and part of that is whiny little bitch threads like this one.

I left because I didn't like the content and posters of this board. Anyone who also has a problem should follow my lead and just leave.

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Drunk at all, sb?

eta:  I am.  Very drunk.

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that offends me SB.....
ok, no it doesn't

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