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Can of Worms crossover

I don't think it's wrong to eat meat, it's the natural food chain. I've come around to the fact that since we (humans) are so much smarter than most livestock/food stuff animals, agriculture is culturally natural.

How did you reach that conclusion?  "Culturally natural" with respect to what culture?  I kind of don't get it.  That sounds like many of the arguments used to justify slavery in the south.  Just the first thing that came to mind...

shit I just had this all typed out and my battery died. dammit.

I just want to mention that if you didn't understand, you could have just asked me. Don't start a personal attack and compare me to a slave trader. I think dialogue is the key here, not squabble. 

By "culturally natural" I'm referring to the fact that people are so much smarter than livestock animals. Livestock domestication allows for other elements of our culture to occur, like a sedentary lifestyle. I realize that not all cultures are agricultural, but ours is and that's what I'm referring to. Agriculture is also a more dependable way to obtain food. By domesticating foodsources (like plants or animals) you're not as vulnerable to seasonal fluctuations in food availability. Animal fertility is greater and morality lower when the herd is devoid of predators. So therefore, I think it makes sense that people would domesticate and controll things that they need to survive, i.e. foodstuffs like agricultural crops. We're not a hunter gatherer society in North America (not since the genocide of our aboriginals anyways) and if you live in an area like the northern states or Canada, or Europe, or anywhere without consistently abundant foodsources, you need to domesticate life to live a sedentary lifestyle. If you're eating meat, you'd need to domesticate that too. I think it's natural to eat meat because hey, at the end of the day, we're just really freaking smart animals, and animals eat animals. It's the food chain. Being smarter we've found a way to get at our food whenever we need it, and if you've got a little family farm where your cows can move around and your chickens can actually see the light of day, then good for you. It's the factory farming and industrial farming that sucks balls, and my veganism is a reaction to that industry.Nothing should suffer for your mercedes, not a cow, not a twelve year old in a Chinese sweatshop (and no, I don't think that a cow that lives on a family farm is suffering).

That's a far cry from the slave trade. Africans, Europeans and all the lovely people in between share the same brain size to body ratio ( or encephalization). Animals don't share this with people. We have a higher capacity for intelligence by far. A Sudanese kid has the same potential to do a math problem just as well as a Japanese kid, but a cow can't even read. Exploiting people isn't the same as exploiting animals. A lion exploits it's environment for food, we exploit our environment for food. Exploiting people is a completely different topic altogether, because we're the same species. 

1.  Editorial:  Who the f*** starts a "maybe a can of worms but" thread on the Chit Chat board when there is a News & Debate board.  The statement of "maybe a can of worms" means that the original poster KNEW that there was potential for debate.  Dude.  Figure it out.  Four boards.

2. 
I don't think it's wrong to eat meat, it's the natural food chain. I've come around to the fact that since we (humans) are so much smarter than most livestock/food stuff animals, agriculture is culturally natural.

How did you reach that conclusion?

I just want to mention that if you didn't understand, you could have just asked me.

She did ask.  And she made a comparison, not an attack. 

3.  But, since you brought it up - one of the arguments in favor of slavery was that slaves weren't as smart.  So, your position is that if that were true it would be okay to enslave people.  If it's a matter of intelligence, I'm hella smart, so could I enslave people who were less intelligent than me, specifically?  Also, animals have different types of intelligence.  Dolphins are smarter than humans, supposedly.  It would be okay for dolphins to attack us because of that?

I did not know that about chocolate. I guess I hadn't thought about it. One more reason to not eat it, I guess. Or to source products carefully.
I usually buy TJ's brand unsweetened soymilk when I do, but I sometimes buy chocolate chips to make cookies or cocoa powder.

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John Robbins has an article about it on his The Food Revolution website.

Is There Slavery In Your Chocolate?

That's another reason to eat Sjaak's Chocolates.  There's a vegan line, it's organic, and the chocolate is fair trade.

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This is exactly what I was thinking, and I am glad Foofie said it because it sounds way better coming out of his mouth. I would like to hear a response to this from Delaware.
I post this all the time, and I'm doing it again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05zhL1YUd8Q

Thanks for posting that video l2a!  I love the hunter at the end.  ;D

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Yay! I don't buy Silk nor eat/drink chocolate!
Thank you for the information, L2A!

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Okay, so we had talked about vegan and what it means and everything... and I was like "okay, so apparently "vegan" is not a dietary choice, but a lifestyle choice. Cool. I'll never say I'm "vegan" because I don't want super hardcore people (however rare) saying "You don't save as many animals as I do, you're not as vegan as me WAAAHHHH"."

So, clever me, I'm like.... "I'll be vegetarian! Just without the Ovo-Lacto! When I get to that point."

And I just went to change to just Lacto-Vegetarian on my profile... and I noticed.... there's no "plain ol' vegetarian" option. So........................

I give up. Labeling sucks, and nobody is anything, because it doesn't matter what you call yourself, only actions matter anyway.

I have no idea why that annoyed me so much, but it did. I can choose between calling myself a lacto-vegetarian, or a vegan... but what if I don't want to be either of those! I will have to leave it blank. So I'm nothing.

Maybe I shouldn't have eaten apple pie for breakfast.... might be messing with my brain.

>:(

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Video by JohnnyDurham19:  Reasons to be Vegetarian.

Response Video by TheAmazingAtheist:  Vegetarianism Sucks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tRrx_tx8Qs
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Response Video by TheAmazingAtheist:  Vegetarianism Sucks

Wow.  Thank god more people are not like that guy.  It's a shame to not see the worth of standing up for what you believe in.  That's quite sad.

That dang line in the sand between broccoli and cows, guys!  I never thought of it that way!   ::)

The fact that he spent two minutes debating the semantics of "directly" is telling.

"Someone expressing even a stupid opinion is amusing and interesting....Even if they're totally stupid, you might learn something new about your own position by what they say."

Yes.  Yes indeed, sir. 

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What an ass. Fortunately (I think?) he sounded way less cultured than the first dude, what with all the swearing and talking about his brother shooting animals and the rocking back and forth. But who would feel the need to post something like that? Is he trying to recruit vegetarians into eating animals? *sigh*
I thought the soapbox bit was funny too--clearly he can't seriously want that to happen.

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I couldn't watch more than 3 minutes of the second guy.

I want to punch him in the mouth. Sorry, not vegan, i know, but why get so worked up because of the guys t-shirt? He said he'd rather him get in peoples faces about not eating meat but Im almost sure that would inspire another steroid induced rant. He needs to chill. Watching him made my blood pressure rise.

Deeps breaths.... ::)

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Re: Is Silk vegan,

http://www.vegsource.com/articles/silk3.htm

It may not be so cut and dried...

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Re: Is Silk vegan,

http://www.vegsource.com/articles/silk3.htm

It may not be so cut and dried...

Thanks for posting.  Good article!

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I was reading this thread and thought I'd chime in-- there are two many quotes to quote but I thought I'd ask-- surely Allychristine and Kissmekate, you were not born vegan? There was a time you were not vegan, and then yourselves decided to make the transition....possibly first to vegetarianism and then veganism? There's almost a militant self-righteous feel to this thread, and I think what is most characteristic of being vegan is  being compassionate and kind, not angry and trying to exclude everybody.

Also, who made you guys the 'vegan police'? I don't think anyone on earth or vegweb is designated as such.... so...get off your high horse! There are people who have been vegan for years yet bought a vehicle that has leather seating before they were vegan, and it would not be economically possible to just replace the seating with fabric just to be deemed 'vegan enough' by their peers. Or clothing that has been bought in pre-vegan days...or furniture.... none of this needs to be replaced or a person doesn't need to have an 100% vegan everything to be vegan....I think you guys are missing the point. What would the point be of a vegan reaching financial destitution by getting rid of all non-vegan clothing etc in order to buy vegan replacements all at once if unable to do so... the point is to no longer buy non-vegan items. It's ok to use what you have rather than have it go to the dump or not have an item that you need. It's ok to wear a wool turtleneck if that is all you have and you are ok with it and don't have money to get a replacement synthetic one.... these products have already been made.

Another point...with veganism and vegetarianism it is mostly dietary as we are not actually en masse going to rescue animals from the slaughter. We actually don't end up eating 97 - 100 dead animals a year....we don't actually 'save' them from the slaughterhouse. I don't hear about or see most vegans actually going to any farms and letting out the animals or rescuing animals from science laboratories. It's not very common that this happens. You act as if all *vegans* are doing such things...no.... they may have a cat or a dog or some other kind of house pet, but they are just eating a vegan diet and shop at the health food store more and are that friend or family member who is eating tofurkey or talking about vegan cupcakes or making yummy food and sharing with others.

You advise that people should label themselves accordingly which seems awfully segregatory, and I don't refer to the civil rights movement or slavery by this comment. I refer to you're trying to separate and categorize people and trivialize their pursuits and claim yourself and your bff as the vegan queens.... that's kind of sad. If people are on this forum or on this website, it's because they are or have an interest in vegetarianism/veganism and finding new recipes to make good, wholesome food. Anyone on the path to vegetarianism or veganism would get a misrepresented view of veg*ns. Everything is not so black and white. Not everyone that calls themself a vegan is an active environmentalist, animal rescuer, etc.... I think people should stop pointing fingers in judgment and stop being all self-righteous and just work on themselves....why don't you just go plant a tree and rescue some animals and break open the  city zoo and free those animals too.  Vegweb has always been and should be a safe, loving place for people to learn something and take back positive things to their own lives. Vegweb is not about being the vegan police and a couple of people monopolizing the boards like they own them and making everybody bow down to their veganistic perfection. 

Also, in case you haven't heard there's another category-- freegan-- which entails reusing and repurposing and making do with what you have or don't have.... there are people out there who don't have food and maybe need to dumpster dive to get it and you guys are debating your veganness like it's a gold medal or something. No one on here is the vegan moral authority... in reality people all over are losing their jobs, homes, resources, etc... and someone who may have been 100% vegan may not be able to afford some of the more expensive vegan products for their family such as toffutti cream cheese versus the generic store brand cream cheese that sells for up to 1/5 the price.... these are all things to consider...  in the real world... not on the vegan planet where money is not an issue.
:)

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Vegweb has always been and should be a safe, loving place for people to learn something and take back positive things to their own lives. Vegweb is not about being the vegan police and a couple of people monopolizing the boards like they own them and making everybody bow down to their veganistic perfection.

Now I'm curious.

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I know who wrote this post, and I'm sorry it has come to this and you feel you have to veil yourself in a different username. 

Just to respond to each of the paragraphs briefly:

1)  No, I was not born vegan.  I transitioned like everyone else, and I called myself vegetarian until I got there. 

2)  I don't recall speaking to pregan goods in this thread at all.  I agree with your position in this paragraph.  There is nothing I can do to make up for the suffering induced by my pregan wool sweater.  It's too late.  The best I can do is not buy anymore.  Here, we agree.  What's the issue?

3)  Also agreed.  I spoke to this earlier in the thread.  Though I disagree that illegally freeing lab and farm animals is not a smart or productive way to advocate veganism.  But I am sad for those animals and do what I can to abstain from participating in such cruelty. 

4)  I never, ever trivialized anyone's pursuit of veg*nism.  I believe in "Don't do nothing because you can't do everything."   I don't judge vegetarians.   I 'm not sure what else to say about it except that I never have and never will.

5)  Yes, I am familiar with freeganism and think it has its own merits.  I also fall into the category of those who cannot afford Tofutti cream cheese.  I've never even tasted it. 

I don't feel the need to defend myself further, but I would encourage you to be clear about what I have said before you wage a personal attack.  As you see, we agree on most of these things.   ???

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Re: Is Silk vegan,

http://www.vegsource.com/articles/silk3.htm

It may not be so cut and dried...

I always thought Robert Cohen was a little whacky, but this is insane! Thanks for posting...

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Re: Is Silk vegan,

http://www.vegsource.com/articles/silk3.htm

It may not be so cut and dried...

I always thought Robert Cohen was a little whacky, but this is insane! Thanks for posting...

Just goes to show one should never believe what one reads...or something. Good article, although I didn't read the research on carageenin because it sounded depressing.

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This part of the article annoys me. 

Cohen regularly rants to his audience that they should boycott White Wave,the current reason being because White Wave refuses to put a statement on their website which Cohen dictated. The statement Cohen demands they make is:

"We at SILK will not knowingly purchase our chocolate beans from nations like Ivory Coast in which kidnapped children are living in slavery."

Since chocolate sold throughout the world is usually blended together from many different sources, it's very difficult to make a statement like this -- unless a company simply plans to buy no chocolate ever again. I interpret Cohen's demand to White Wave as his basically telling them to get out of the chocolate soymilk business, or face Cohen's wrath.

That seems like a lazy excuse if one were to use a slave-labor product.  My beloved Sjaak's Chocolates uses organic, fair-trade chocolate.  To say that if you don't use slave-trade chocolate you can't use any chocolate makes me question the fair-handedness of the rest of the article.

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But then in the "Does Silk Bilk" article they link...

"Source of Silk Chocolate

We received a few emails from people claiming that chocolate used in Silk is grown on slave plantations on Africa's Ivory Coast. However, no one has provided a shred of evidence that this is true. It appears to be little more than a baffling Internet rumor no one can substantiate.

We asked Silk about this rumor and they said that they are very concerned about the issue of slave labor, and would never knowingly purchase chocolate produced under such conditions. They said this accusation is false, that this would be the opposite of everything their company stands for.

We will soon be featuring a fascinating article on VegSource on the slave labor issue, but as far as White Wave purchasing slave labor chocolate, they say it is simply not true. Just as we would do for anyone, we give White Wave the benefit of being presumed innocent until proven guilty. And again, we were unable to find any evidence whatsoever that White Wave uses chocolate produced by slave labor."

Then again, this could just be me trying to justify Silk because I think it's tasty.

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Ugh, so much information to decipher. 

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I was reading this thread and thought I'd chime in--

Honestly, this is why I do not debate.

While I read through this debate, I understood that people were taking out their beliefs, understandings and ideas and shaking them up.  Checking for holes before putting them back, pleased with what they found.  But honestly, I can't distance my own self from the process so I too would be a crying and feeling like a guilty mess should I try.  Thus I dont.

The debate was not to consider anyone the vegan police. But to get people to think, to consider and to ponder their own beliefs as what is vegan and why we are vegan.  Debates about reasons vs. abstaining from animal products muddied the waters a bit but were still good to review.

Until someone points their finger, shouts my name, I simply sit back and tell myself "The world does not revolve around you Cali." and know that while things they debate may hurt my feelings, are NOT ABOUT ME.

I say this all the time... The only perfect vegan is a dead vegan.  I am going to add in "fertilizing the garden with their decaying corpse" in the future but probably no one but me will find that amusing.

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