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Branch from the "do you cheat on your lifestyle" thread.

Continuing discussion from: http://vegweb.com/index.php?topic=19076.0 (do you cheat on your lifestyle?)

I will copy my post.

I had an idea last night that I think goes with this thread:
OK, assume that the world gives up living on an animal-based diet and everyone is vegetarian/vegan. The global economy completely changes; places that were once used to rear animals for slaughter become cornfields. My question is, in your mind, what happens to the animals? (This is ideally, not necessarily realistically.) Since our economy gives these animals their short, brutish lives ... what happens if we decide to do without them? Do the thousands of beef cows get moved to an animal sanctuary? Do we put them in zoos? Keep them as pets?

I am trying to picture it in my mind I can't really think of anything. (Probably because many of these species have been domesticated by man for centuries ... it would be weird to release them into the wild.)
Ideas?

In my mind, a lot/most of these animals (realistically) will die. No, they most probably can't survive anywhere but their horrid environments in which they came from. I guess everyone would try to save as many as possible, and give them a wonderful remaining life, but that could only be a select few. Our society has created them, and they would die without us. Thankfully, in this hypothetical situation, no more would be created for such a purpose! I guess they could just live on these cornfields. Could we keep big pastures for them? They could live there until they die. Also, why all corn? I want big...avocado fields, or something.

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Anyway, I honestly think there is a whole lot being blown out of proportion/misunderstood here. (and I'm not meaning that in a way to minimize or devalue anyone's feelings) We are all people communicating. I said over and over that I'm not saying that I'm any better than anyone else, or "I hate you", or whatever. I'm "speaking" my opinion, as everyone else is. Obviously, I'm going to hold the same opinion as some, and not as others. Period. I mean, if we were all sitting around in a room talking, it would play out the same (without as much time to think of what to say..and hopefully without as much misunderstanding).

Also, I want to clear something up. I won't speak for her, but I don't purposely conspire with KMK (or anyone else) against anyone, or to say certain things. We agree 98% of the time, and THAT'S why we are good friends (in part, of course). It's not that we are good friends, so we must agree all the time. Just because we hold the same opinion, it doesn't mean that we are banding together to overthrow anyone.

Re: this favorite business-Isn't it obvious that we're all going to like certain people more than others. Maybe it's just me, but I don't like every single person I meet, and I definitely like some people more than others. IRL ( ::)), I don't pretend to like certain people, and play like we're good friends, but I also don't personally attack others, or say hateful things to them. I guess I don't understand why it's so surprising, and such a horrible thing, that we might not ALL like each other. I don't really have a problem with someone not liking me (online at least...In life, I'd be like, WHAT is wrong with you?!) I also know that on other forums, they have threads talking about how much they love certain members, and so forth. We don't do that, and we don't personally attack each other.

eta before posting in reference to CW's post: I understand that those situations arise, and must be extremely difficult for those that encounter them, but that's not at all what I was talking about in my original posts, and regarding the big picture of it all. Those are extreme situations that arise, and I assume can't be avoided. That's not the same as choosing to eat/do something not vegan, but wanting to be vegan, and justifying it (or not).

This thread turned into funtimes.

Hi (JM)2!  I'm glad to hear your input.  I think your post was very well said!  Y'all are so succinct and to the point.  I talk on and on like blah blah blahhhhhhhhh.  :stop!:

I'm not a burrito, but I thought on the way home from work that I would very much like a burrito for dinner.  Now that AC has revealed herself as such, I will just have AC over for dinner instead.

Thanks...I do tend to be a bit direct. I also can't type as fast as others so need to be speedy if I want to stay in the conversation here I think.

And burritos rock!! Hey its a variation on beans and rice so must love them. Don't eat AC tho - she's too funny!

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OH SNAP KMK. MDVEGAN BURNED YOU GOOD.
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Yeah, i'ts pretty exciting to be discovering veganism for myself. It's been an interest of mine for a while (especially raw foodism, but I don't see that happening for a while).
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And AC, of course I wouldn' t like those things! Very astute, you  little burrito!  ;D
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The fastest way to lose my respect is to try to dictate a system of belief to me ... that's why this thread has been so great. I love hearing others' opinions and exchanging ideas in a productive way.

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Seriously, folks?  Again? 

~mdv hides in the M.A. thread and cooking forum~

Yes, again!  I've had this debate AT LEAST five times.  You got a problem?   >:D

I prefer digital music to broken records.  >:D  :-*

Hmm...as long as new people can join this forum and people share their stories I think conversations are going to be repeated. Sorry.  :-[

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This thread turned into funtimes.

Hi (JM)2!  I'm glad to hear your input.  I think your post was very well said!  Y'all are so succinct and to the point.  I talk on and on like blah blah blahhhhhhhhh.  :stop!:

I'm not a burrito, but I thought on the way home from work that I would very much like a burrito for dinner.  Now that AC has revealed herself as such, I will just have AC over for dinner instead.

I think I'll do another list.

1. I think you meant  :stfu:

2. Not really.

3. I enjoy this branch, as well. Turned into a nice debate. (despite the browbeating scare)

4. I am full of avocado. EAT THAT. (ANT, you here?!)

5. Why were you on your way home from work on Sunday?

6. :howdy: mdv.

eta:7.  I'm a big burrito.

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It's been an interest of mine for a while (especially raw foodism, but I don't see that happening for a while).

I'm interested in raw food too but find it hard in the midwest, especially in winter - that's when I tried it and gave up when I was cold, sitting in my cold office eating my cold food...  :'(

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Yeah, JM2 ... I'm holding you personally responsible!  :-D

I think it's fine that the same things get discussed over and over ... we all benefit from repetition, right? Isn't that the easiest way to examine our beliefs, to bring them up and do a little friendly comparison from time to time?

On a side note, I would really like to have a raw vegan chef come live in my house and prepare all my meals. For my birthday, maybe? Kthx.

The resources I have for raw food in winter (you should check out "Eat Smart, Eat Raw" by Kate Wood, she's a good writer) recommend using lots of jalapeno and coconut to ease winter cravings. I totally know what you mean, though ... it's hard to beat a big plate of hot curry on a nasty snow day.

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Ha ha...  ::)

I completely agree...after all, evertually the topics would be quite limited if old ones couldn't be revisited.

Me too!

And thanks for the link! I like both peppers and coconut, so that is handy to know.

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Seriously, folks?  Again? 

~mdv hides in the M.A. thread and cooking forum~

Yes, again!  I've had this debate AT LEAST five times.  You got a problem?   >:D

I prefer digital music to broken records.  >:D  :-*

>:D :-* :)>>>

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I honestly dont know why I read these two posts.   I should be curled up in bed sleeping not watching this train wreck.  No one "wins" these debates.  The definition of vegan is as stated:  (Yes I used Wiki because I dont have my Diet for a Small Planet or China Study handy to quote by the book.)

Quote:
Wikipedia:
Veganism is a diet and lifestyle that seeks to exclude the use of animals for food, clothing, or any other purpose. Vegans endeavor not to use or consume animal products of any kind.

That being said, many people are on a journey to reach that pinnacle of veganism for a variety of reasons with a wide range of resources and success rates.  Maybe the terms they are using are not correct at the time they use but its a journey or process, not a holier than thou pedestal.  The only perfect vegan is the dead one in the compost pile, feeding the plants and animal life.

I sincerely do not know how anyone can point a finger at anyone else and say "NOT VEGAN".  You would not go up to someone in a church and shout "NOT CHRISTIAN" because you saw them eat beef Friday.  You are not going to get religious brownie points for decrying another.  Likewise you do not earn vegan Indulgences with every person you declare is not vegan based on your opinion.

What ever happened to acceptance, tolerance and being non judgmental?  Is vegan compassion reserved only for non human animals now?

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Cali,

:)>>>

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Wow, some different point of views for sure. I guess I have a problem calling myself a vegeterian, because like I said, only when challanged outside of the home do I eat something that might not be vegan...I never eat meat, eggs or cheese or anytype of dairy when I'm home...and let me make it clear, I eat out maybe 4 times a year, I really prefer to cook, and know what goes into my food...My Hubby is not a Vegan or vegeterian, and he loves his meat and dairy, yes, sometimes i cook for him, but 90% of the time he will eat his meat outside of the house, and he will eat the vegan entree I cook for dinner. I have cheese and eggs in my fridge because he eats it. I choose to become Vegan for health reasons first, and secondly because I don't want to cause the animals to suffer on my part...I own no leather or fur, and don't buy animal tested products for both myself, my husband and our household....my hubby is supportive on that end, I prefer to call myself vegan, because thats how I live my life, if something happens outside the home, and I consume an animal product, I am not going to beat myself up about it, and I'm not going to say I'm no longer a vegan...you've all heard the expression  s**t happens....the way the food supply is here in the US, I don't trust what is on the label 95% of the time...it might say vegan, but have some animal bi-product  in it...unless you stick to veggies, (and make sure you read the labels on the frozen ones)fruits, and whole grains...god only knows what you are eating....remember alot of these vegan companies have their products produced in large facilities that also process non vegan items...so with that said, I guess I'll continue to classify myself as a vegan....and you guys can call me what ever you want ;D just don't call me late for dinner...cause that will never happen....Peace

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1. I don't think my opinion of what is not vegan makes me an uncompassionate person, just as I don't think someone doing/eating something not vegan makes them a bad (i.e. any negative description word) person.

2. I didn't ask for any type of points, nor was I trying to win.

3. I really don't understand how (in what way) I'm making any judgments.

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Since we're all making lists ... here's my idea in a few clear points, AC.
NB: this isn't intended as a personal judgment, just my explanation of why you might feel the way you do.

1. Obviously, everyone on this forum applies a value judgment to veganism/vegetarianism as being "better" than an omnivore lifestyle. This could be for a variety of personal reasons, from a desire for better personal health to animal rights.

2. There is a major distinction between a "vegan person" and a "vegan product." A "vegan product" is 100% vegan, which can be verified by looking at its ingredients, source, etc. A "vegan person" on the other hand is probably not 100% vegan in the same way as a "vegan product." We weren't born vegan; we live in an omnivorous society, benefit from non-vegan medicine, and so on. Furthermore, everyone's idea of what constitutes a "vegan lifestyle" is different; for one person, it may be eating cheese once a month. For another, it may be purging every animal-based item and living an all-plant lifestyle. Everyone has his or her own interpretation.

3. The trouble is the indistinction between vegan people, vegan products, and the vegan ideal. No person can live up to an ideal (because it's an ideal, duh), and no person is truly vegan. Even vegan products are suspect. So it's unfair to compare vegan people, or say "that's not vegan enough."

See what I mean? I think that's where this tension comes from; the perception we share that there is a value in veganism, and the comparison of acceptable degrees of vegan behavior.

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Dang, people... I gotta say, I'm pretty happy to see this thread turned into funtimes while still staying (mostly) on topic.  ;D

.....I will say that my last few posts were not meant to attack, belittle, or offend anybody..though the tone comes across as pretty harsh. So if it seems to anybody that I've used this thread as an outlet for my anger, I apologize, because that misrepresents my real intent.

However, I do stand by every argument I've made so far, having read through all responses and backtracking to original posts that I responded to.

The important thing to remember here is that Our WORDS are the only tool We can use (other than smileys, which are not always effective) to express Ourselves here. ...Unless We want to post webcam videos of Ourselves, speaking Our points and having the luxury of voice and facial expression, We'll have to be very careful in Our wordcrafting. Example:

"Vegans do this"
vs.
"Some Vegans do this"

...those two phrases really DO indicate different statements. The first appears as an all-inclusive blanket statement, while the second shows selectivity. It would be akin to saying, "Vegans do not eat cheese" vs. "Some Vegans do not eat cheese"
.......Those two show a big difference; and in this case, the first blanket statement is what applies, but the second one is selective of the group "Vegans," so it claims that NOT all Vegans are included. ..Obviously there is a major difference when that one word is taken out, which is why We must select Our words carefully.
There is also the question of "Good" and "Bad" or if You will, "Evil."
......believe it or not, these words ARE subjective, and they denote value or judgment specific to one person's or one system's definition. 'Systems' include religion (and each individual denomination, etc.), schools of philosophical thought, and even social or political groups.... they all have slightly varying ideas of what is "Good," "Right," "Evil," and "Wrong."
...So, just keep that in mind if You (collective) say "That is wrong," or "That is better than..." because the description points to a specific system of values, which don't apply in exact terms to everybody here. Alternatives might include "That opposes this principle of Veganism," or "That is more acceptable/preferred in my/Our opinion," and so on.

That aside....I'm glad that the discussion has taken this more chill demeanour. I must wonder, though:

AC, are You made of black beans, crumbled tofu, alfalfa sprouts, red leaf lettuce, baby 'bella mushrooms, and salsa inside? ...Is Your skin really a 10" flour tortilla??

:o ...I think I ate AC last night.
sorry guys.  :-[

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You ate AC? Oh dear. (Sounds delicious, though.)

I have to know ... if she was full of beans, did she give you gas?  :-D

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You ate AC? Oh dear. (Sounds delicious, though.)

I have to know ... if she was full of beans, did she give you gas?  :-D

HIGH FIVE!
;)b 8-)

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I guess the problem I have with these discussions is that most people will feel judged by many of the comments.  While no one is specifically saying "Cali, you are so not vegan! You ate bread that you didnt ask if it had an eggwash! How DARE you!" the feeling will still be there.  Some people are trying their best and may not be there yet due to illness, circumstance or location.  Does this make them "Not Vegan"?  Maybe they should say "I am aspiring to be vegan".  But when restaurants, family and omnis dont eve know what vegan is let alone cook for one how do you tell them what you do or dont eat?  Say Vegan, tell them no animal products and if they give you honey then use your best polite judgment on how to proceed.

I find my issue with this topic is it is labeled as "cheating".  Is this deliberately not being vegan or do circumstances make thing accidental.  I know I have been fed everything from milk to cow to fish in the last 11 years but I do not consider it cheating unless I knowingly and willingly said "i know this isnt vegan but I dont care! neener neener".  No, I ate casein filled cheese for many years, not knowing it was dairy!  Was I cheating?  Or just uneducated?

For those living with omni's and family animals that might provide non vegan food simply trade it with others who have garden produce.  Be sure you have a cutting board thats obviously always for the vegan foods.  Even if all you do is write VEGAN on it with sharpie.  Make vegan cookies and pancakes for the kids so you know you can enjoy them too.

For those living hand to mouth, look into cheap things like rice and beans, in season local veggies, growing your own indoors or out, and working with assistance like Food Not Bombs.

For those with eating disorders that may end up binging, simply do not have non vegan items at hand.  I know this is probably hardest of all because you have no control when it hits and the guilt of just the event is huge enough.  Recover how ever you can and then get back to your ideal of vegan.  Do what is best for you when you can.

Just remember, the only perfect vegan is a dead vegan.  And if you have a momentary lapse, shake it off, learn from it and continue on your journey.

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This is so well put. Your passion really comes through!

I think we're all "aspiring to be vegan." And I agree (I think KMK made this point earlier) that "cheating" doesn't really make sense. You cheat when you use the dictionary in Scrabble, not when you accidentally eat casein.

I think it really is a distinction between vegan food and vegan people. People, as you said, are never going to be "perfect" vegans. It just doesn't work like that. The best thing we can do is try, and try. And be welcoming to those who try alongside us.

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Some people are trying their best and may not be there yet due to illness, circumstance or location.  Does this make them "Not Vegan"?  Maybe they should say "I am aspiring to be vegan".  But when restaurants, family and omnis dont eve know what vegan is let alone cook for one how do you tell them what you do or dont eat?  Say Vegan, tell them no animal products and if they give you honey then use your best polite judgment on how to proceed.

I find my issue with this topic is it is labeled as "cheating".  Is this deliberately not being vegan or do circumstances make thing accidental.  I know I have been fed everything from milk to cow to fish in the last 11 years but I do not consider it cheating unless I knowingly and willingly said "i know this isnt vegan but I dont care! neener neener".  No, I ate casein filled cheese for many years, not knowing it was dairy!  Was I cheating?  Or just uneducated?

For those living with omni's and family animals that might provide non vegan food simply trade it with others who have garden produce.  Be sure you have a cutting board thats obviously always for the vegan foods.  Even if all you do is write VEGAN on it with sharpie.  Make vegan cookies and pancakes for the kids so you know you can enjoy them too.

For those living hand to mouth, look into cheap things like rice and beans, in season local veggies, growing your own indoors or out, and working with assistance like Food Not Bombs.

For those with eating disorders that may end up binging, simply do not have non vegan items at hand.  I know this is probably hardest of all because you have no control when it hits and the guilt of just the event is huge enough.  Recover how ever you can and then get back to your ideal of vegan.  Do what is best for you when you can.

Just remember, the only perfect vegan is a dead vegan.  And if you have a momentary lapse, shake it off, learn from it and continue on your journey.

I agree.
I was never arguing that people don't accidentally eat something not vegan. Anyway, I think my point has been heard!
Of course, we all disagree on some things, and agree on others. Yada.

Despite all fears (or lack of), I am still here, and whole; CW did not eat me. I have morphed back into human form, but in my burrito state, I'm just filled with lots of guac., and some rice.

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