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Branch from the "do you cheat on your lifestyle" thread.

Continuing discussion from: http://vegweb.com/index.php?topic=19076.0 (do you cheat on your lifestyle?)

I will copy my post.

I had an idea last night that I think goes with this thread:
OK, assume that the world gives up living on an animal-based diet and everyone is vegetarian/vegan. The global economy completely changes; places that were once used to rear animals for slaughter become cornfields. My question is, in your mind, what happens to the animals? (This is ideally, not necessarily realistically.) Since our economy gives these animals their short, brutish lives ... what happens if we decide to do without them? Do the thousands of beef cows get moved to an animal sanctuary? Do we put them in zoos? Keep them as pets?

I am trying to picture it in my mind I can't really think of anything. (Probably because many of these species have been domesticated by man for centuries ... it would be weird to release them into the wild.)
Ideas?

In my mind, a lot/most of these animals (realistically) will die. No, they most probably can't survive anywhere but their horrid environments in which they came from. I guess everyone would try to save as many as possible, and give them a wonderful remaining life, but that could only be a select few. Our society has created them, and they would die without us. Thankfully, in this hypothetical situation, no more would be created for such a purpose! I guess they could just live on these cornfields. Could we keep big pastures for them? They could live there until they die. Also, why all corn? I want big...avocado fields, or something.

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Anyway, I honestly think there is a whole lot being blown out of proportion/misunderstood here. (and I'm not meaning that in a way to minimize or devalue anyone's feelings) We are all people communicating. I said over and over that I'm not saying that I'm any better than anyone else, or "I hate you", or whatever. I'm "speaking" my opinion, as everyone else is. Obviously, I'm going to hold the same opinion as some, and not as others. Period. I mean, if we were all sitting around in a room talking, it would play out the same (without as much time to think of what to say..and hopefully without as much misunderstanding).

Also, I want to clear something up. I won't speak for her, but I don't purposely conspire with KMK (or anyone else) against anyone, or to say certain things. We agree 98% of the time, and THAT'S why we are good friends (in part, of course). It's not that we are good friends, so we must agree all the time. Just because we hold the same opinion, it doesn't mean that we are banding together to overthrow anyone.

Re: this favorite business-Isn't it obvious that we're all going to like certain people more than others. Maybe it's just me, but I don't like every single person I meet, and I definitely like some people more than others. IRL ( ::)), I don't pretend to like certain people, and play like we're good friends, but I also don't personally attack others, or say hateful things to them. I guess I don't understand why it's so surprising, and such a horrible thing, that we might not ALL like each other. I don't really have a problem with someone not liking me (online at least...In life, I'd be like, WHAT is wrong with you?!) I also know that on other forums, they have threads talking about how much they love certain members, and so forth. We don't do that, and we don't personally attack each other.

eta before posting in reference to CW's post: I understand that those situations arise, and must be extremely difficult for those that encounter them, but that's not at all what I was talking about in my original posts, and regarding the big picture of it all. Those are extreme situations that arise, and I assume can't be avoided. That's not the same as choosing to eat/do something not vegan, but wanting to be vegan, and justifying it (or not).

Again, I don't think we're talking about the same thing. Did you read, and understand my points above? I don't feel like you're addressing what I've been trying to say.

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I wouldn't eat it, if that's what you mean.

The burrito example works now, but I'm talking about the long-term implications and evolution of the word "vegan." I guess we're talking about different things.

not exactly.  why wouldnt you eat it?  

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Sigh. Really? Are you going to browbeat me until you make your point?

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Again, I don't think we're talking about the same thing. Did you read, and understand my points above? I don't feel like you're addressing what I've been trying to say.

Hmmm. I thought I did.  I disagree with points 1 and 2 in that vegan means more than one thing and there is more than one definition.  I think there is only one.

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i thought thats why we were talking - to make our points?  if you took that as browbeating - sorry, i'm done.

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No, no ... I just got frustrated because I realized we were talking about different things. I'm not taking it personally.

To answer your question: I wouldn't eat the burrito because it has eggs, which come from an animal. However, if I did eat it, I wouldn't feel that I'd stopped being vegan. I would try not to eat more eggs in the future, but I'd also forgive my self a temporary lapse of judgment (intentional or not).

By the same token, if I used a moisturizer that had been tested on animals, I wouldn't feel that I'd failed at something ... I'd weigh the pros and cons of using it, and consider whether or not to keep using it.*

Maybe my point of view comes from the fact that (as I said before) I'm pretty new to this lifestyle; I'm still transitioning, and working on forming my personal beliefs about what it means to be vegan. I'm also inclined to be extremely forgiving towards myself ... I don't see the point of trying to live up to a strict standard from the very beginning. I'd rather transform slowly and try to get the meaning of the process.

*This is weird, but I'm allergic to a really common plant-derived ingredient. It's hard to find products that don't have this AND aren't animal-tested AND are natural and planet-friendly. So for allergy reasons, I usually end up with the super-synthetic, nasty products. Go figure.

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I hope you don't mind me jumping in here but I've read the entire thread (even the original...I've been a busy girl) and I'm wondering if we could say that the definition of Vegan doesn't change but individual interpretations of it are different and how each person applies it to their own lives are different. And I for one would freak if Amy's labeled a burrito Vegan and it had egg in it. That isn't a statement of judgement, just...well that I agree that the meaning shouldn't change. For simplicity's sake it should be what it always is so we can rely on it. Otherwise what is the point of a name?

That said, I don't care what people eat privately. That is their business - each is their own keeper so to speak.

this was my point exactly. 

br - it wouldnt be your fault for a 'temporary lack of judgement' it would be amy's fault for misrepresenting itself.

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I agree ... but a burrito and a person are (duh) two different things.

If Amy's says a burrito is vegan, but it has egg in it, it's not vegan.
If I say I'm vegan, but I have egg in me (or on my skin, or whatever) am I still vegan?

I feel like I'm nit-picking ... we can change the subject if this is too tiresome.  :)

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Wait, it's true that I'm nit-picking, or it's true that I'm not a burrito?!  :-D

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Ich bin Ein Burrito!

Yeah, I'd say that the biggest challenges at home (besides coping with my cravings) are remembering to buy and prepare vegan food for myself and maintaining a vegan-friendly kitchen.
I mean, I've worked in commercial kitchens, so I know about cleanliness standards for vegan food prep ... but it is really a pain in the ass to have to clean and bleach every cutting board I own every time I want to switch from omni to veggie food.

I guess with the cravings and inconvenience, it's sort of like having booze in the house. (I don't drink.) I know I like cheese (or beer), and I know I could have cheese (or beer). But I also know that cheese (or beer) makes me sick, so I shouldn't have it.

I feel like it would be a lot easier if I lived in a vegan household, but I am pretty sure that's not going to happen, for a few years at least. When my baby's old enough to give up cow milk and meat, I'll start the transition ... until then, I'm just trying to keep tabs on myself.

PS. I looked at your profile. Your kitties are so cute!

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1. I am a burrito.

2. I have a feeling br wouldn't (have) liked my "not vegan!" comments or the use of http://www.clipartof.com/images/emoticons/xsmall2/385_smiley_face_cop.gif

3. good times

eta: I was tempted to say "not vegan!" after the use of "kill two birds with one stone," but I resisted.  :P

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Seriously, folks?  Again? 

~mdv hides in the M.A. thread and cooking forum~

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This thread turned into funtimes.

Hi (JM)2!  I'm glad to hear your input.  I think your post was very well said!  Y'all are so succinct and to the point.  I talk on and on like blah blah blahhhhhhhhh.  :stop!:

I'm not a burrito, but I thought on the way home from work that I would very much like a burrito for dinner.  Now that AC has revealed herself as such, I will just have AC over for dinner instead.

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Seriously, folks?  Again? 

~mdv hides in the M.A. thread and cooking forum~

Yes, again!  I've had this debate AT LEAST five times.  You got a problem?  >:D

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Seriously, folks?  Again? 

~mdv hides in the M.A. thread and cooking forum~

Yes, again!  I've had this debate AT LEAST five times.  You got a problem?   >:D

I prefer digital music to broken records.  >:D  :-*

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OH SNAP KMK. MDVEGAN BURNED YOU GOOD.
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Yeah, i'ts pretty exciting to be discovering veganism for myself. It's been an interest of mine for a while (especially raw foodism, but I don't see that happening for a while).
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And AC, of course I wouldn' t like those things! Very astute, you  little burrito!  ;D
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The fastest way to lose my respect is to try to dictate a system of belief to me ... that's why this thread has been so great. I love hearing others' opinions and exchanging ideas in a productive way.

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This thread turned into funtimes.

Hi (JM)2!  I'm glad to hear your input.  I think your post was very well said!  Y'all are so succinct and to the point.  I talk on and on like blah blah blahhhhhhhhh.  :stop!:

I'm not a burrito, but I thought on the way home from work that I would very much like a burrito for dinner.  Now that AC has revealed herself as such, I will just have AC over for dinner instead.

I think I'll do another list.

1. I think you meant  :stfu:

2. Not really.

3. I enjoy this branch, as well. Turned into a nice debate. (despite the browbeating scare)

4. I am full of avocado. EAT THAT. (ANT, you here?!)

5. Why were you on your way home from work on Sunday?

6. :howdy: mdv.

eta:7.  I'm a big burrito.

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Yeah, JM2 ... I'm holding you personally responsible!  :-D

I think it's fine that the same things get discussed over and over ... we all benefit from repetition, right? Isn't that the easiest way to examine our beliefs, to bring them up and do a little friendly comparison from time to time?

On a side note, I would really like to have a raw vegan chef come live in my house and prepare all my meals. For my birthday, maybe? Kthx.

The resources I have for raw food in winter (you should check out "Eat Smart, Eat Raw" by Kate Wood, she's a good writer) recommend using lots of jalapeno and coconut to ease winter cravings. I totally know what you mean, though ... it's hard to beat a big plate of hot curry on a nasty snow day.

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Seriously, folks?  Again? 

~mdv hides in the M.A. thread and cooking forum~

Yes, again!  I've had this debate AT LEAST five times.  You got a problem?   >:D

I prefer digital music to broken records.  >:D  :-*

>:D :-* :)>>>

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I honestly dont know why I read these two posts.   I should be curled up in bed sleeping not watching this train wreck.  No one "wins" these debates.  The definition of vegan is as stated:  (Yes I used Wiki because I dont have my Diet for a Small Planet or China Study handy to quote by the book.)

Quote:
Wikipedia:
Veganism is a diet and lifestyle that seeks to exclude the use of animals for food, clothing, or any other purpose. Vegans endeavor not to use or consume animal products of any kind.

That being said, many people are on a journey to reach that pinnacle of veganism for a variety of reasons with a wide range of resources and success rates.  Maybe the terms they are using are not correct at the time they use but its a journey or process, not a holier than thou pedestal.  The only perfect vegan is the dead one in the compost pile, feeding the plants and animal life.

I sincerely do not know how anyone can point a finger at anyone else and say "NOT VEGAN".  You would not go up to someone in a church and shout "NOT CHRISTIAN" because you saw them eat beef Friday.  You are not going to get religious brownie points for decrying another.  Likewise you do not earn vegan Indulgences with every person you declare is not vegan based on your opinion.

What ever happened to acceptance, tolerance and being non judgmental?  Is vegan compassion reserved only for non human animals now?

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