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Alcohol & Drinking

A continuation of I'm drunk.

... your crusade against those who drink....

My objection is not to drinking alcohol, per se. I am objecting to drinking in excess, ie; getting drunk, because of the harm that it causes, because of the harm that it causes other people besides the drinker.

My second objection is to encouraging others to drink to excess, ie; get drunk, for the same reason. In fact, I believe there should be a law against it. Because of the harm that excessive drinking does to other people besides the drinker.

I also object to boasting about drunkeness. I believe that it falls under the category of the second objection.

Wow, this is yielding some interesting nuggets. I've thought this many times before, but it's never been so clear to me. I might have to thank you all for encouraging me to simplify and clarify my thinking.

theodamas:
THIS is what I wanted to know. Thank you for finally clarifying it! The question I have is: you object to drunkenness and drinking culture but not necessarily with a person drinking in the first place...where is the line in your mind? Would it be different for each person based on tolerance/history/predisposition/family responsibilities? ie How could drinking to excess be made illegal if alcohol is still legal?

Being drunk is largely down to state of mind for me.
I can drink and not get drunk, I can have a beer and feel drunk.
I know people who have gone out, not drunk any alcohol, and have felt drunk just because they're with people who are. So is it just down to alcohol. What do we exactly mean by 'drunk'?

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From here

Don't think I don't understand that your just having fun I did giggle over the lost comment, but perhaps Lilyroze has had something happen to her involving drinking? I don't know but maybe people shouldn't be so cruel to each other. Right now I'm going through a seperation after years of dealing with an alcoholic, yes children do cry and families are broken up over a disease. I don't think that the original poster was drinking and beat his wife because she had gone to see the movie two times, but there are men who would have after drinking. Drinking is not always a fun experience, it can be as it seems  like what was going on here. I"m sure I just killed this thread, I shouldn't have said anything but why is there so much cruelty towards another human being. you can always ignore her. ( and me)

I wondered that for a minute, CC.  But I don't think it's fair that I have been lumped in with dead beat dad's, abusive husbands, and love 'em and leave 'em types for no reason.  This thread's purpose was light-hearted conversation because I was alone and bored and didn't have anyone to talk to, not to bring back awful memories that a few may have so I could be the victim of virtual, vicarious vengence.  I also didn't ask anyone to come in here and get on a soapbox and tell me how I need to live my life.  Yes, I got drunk.  No, I didn't wear a wife-beater, yell at my fiancee, and then beat the crap out of her.  I also didn't force myself on her, nor did I even attempt to have sex with her because, like I said in an earlier post, I'm responsible when I'm being reckelss.  I'm not the villain from a Lifetime made for television movie.  I would appreciate to not be labeled as such.  Also, my heart goes out to you, CC.  I'm sorry that you are going through a difficult time. :(  If the same has happened to LilyRoze, my heart goes out to her as well.  But I am not any of those things, and I never will be.  Don't let that one man affect your opinion of all men.  I've said it before and I will say it again: not all men are created equal.

By "others" I mean absolutely anyone. The sentences (tranasactions) anyone says can be analyzed for hidden underlying motivations.

You could just tell us what you're trying to say.

I'm actually interested in who the "others" are.

For instance: Both of these previous sentences were a request for information. They would be qualified as adult in nature, and jerk-free. Very good.

Interesting.  Especially when this was your first contribution to the thread:

"Mommy, what's an enabler?

When i grow up I want to marry a drunk just like daddy, 'cause he's so cute and funny when he's drunk"

It's hard for some to be jerk-free when a majority of your posts in this thread seem to have a malicious hidden underlying motivation behind them.  You get what you give.  And for the record, I haven't been rude in any of my posts.  Just sayin' in case anyone may think otherwise.

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Being drunk is largely down to state of mind for me.
I can drink and not get drunk, I can have a beer and feel drunk.
I know people who have gone out, not drunk any alcohol, and have felt drunk just because they're with people who are. So is it just down to alcohol. What do we exactly mean by 'drunk'?

Yes.  Depends on the situation for me.  If I'm not having a good time, or am tired or bored, I won't feel the least bit drunk, even though I've had a whole bottle of wine.  But other times, like when going out to a bar or something, one beer makes me feel tipsy.  It's weird.

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Being drunk is largely down to state of mind for me.
I can drink and not get drunk, I can have a beer and feel drunk.
I know people who have gone out, not drunk any alcohol, and have felt drunk just because they're with people who are. So is it just down to alcohol. What do we exactly mean by 'drunk'?

Yes.  Depends on the situation for me.  If I'm not having a good time, or am tired or bored, I won't feel the least bit drunk, even though I've had a whole bottle of wine.  But other times, like when going out to a bar or something, one beer makes me feel tipsy.  It's weird.

Only thing I can put it down to is mindset and psychology, potentially with some kind of mob rule element to it.

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Thanks for moving it hh :) Appreciated.

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This thread gives me a headache, and makes me want a fucking drink.

SUP, Y'ALL?!

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p.s. I move to ban smoking and smokers due to the waste it causes and the damage it does to non-smokers and the environment. Leave my wine alone. See also: beer, whiskey, and the occasional cocktail.

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:/ I don't drink personally... family history of problems with substance abuse. I'll leave it there.

I personally don't think anyone should drink. No law will really prevent that, and it always comes down to people should have a choice what they want to do. I just generally think it's a bad idea. Behavior issues aside, it's really truly terrible for you... all the "health benefits" I have heard are easily gotten elsewhere. To me, drinking alcohol is like drinking formaldehyde... except fun.

(well, apparently.)

I guess the behavior thing for alcohol (exacerbating violent behavior, or helping people make poor decisions, such as driving drunk) can best be compared to a drug that does somewhat similar things... like meth. Apparently it makes people more violent. I could see someone arguing for some illicit drugs to be legal because they don't really harm anyone but the user, but in the case of meth *or* alcohol one could make the case that one of their main effects may well cause others to be harmed. Should they be banned then? Considering the relatively high rate of spousal abuse, maybe alcohol really does frequently worsen violence. (of course, you could argue that's a societal problem, and no alcohol is just a band-aid cure. i guess it depends if there are physically violent drunks who aren't normally physically violent).

As far as people on the internet saying it's ok, i'm/he's/she's not an alcoholic, how does anyone know? It's the internet. Something like 40% of US males and 25% of US females will have or have had an alcohol abuse problem.

I'm not saying anyone on here is an alcoholic or has a substance abuse problem, but we can't go "pssh! lolcatlover228 isn't an alcoholic!" just because we "know" them, and no one we know could be an alcoholic. (sorry to whoever takes that screenname, haha)

I'm tired of hearing about "the guard." The people in "the guard" have changed so much over the years, and it's generally just used when a sizeable portion of people disagree with what someone says. Of course vegwebbers who feel neutral aren't going to say anything - we're not such postwhores that we're going to reply to every non-inspiring thread with "meh."

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Thanks for moving it hh :) Appreciated.

Maybe the original post should be moved into Do Not Disturb? as it's a bit disturbing how many people are contributing to an industry that is that cause of SO MUCH suffering and violence, you would think people who don't take of honey would understand a bit. And what is with twisting my words around? And to the original poster, you do know it's not healthy to be drinking that much alcohol, I'm sure and if you had true friends instead of laughing with you they would ask you what is wrong and let you know it's not something you should be doing, it's a bad habit and nothing good will come out of it. So you go save the bees and I will live in my 'life time TV drama movie' about what alcoholism can do to people. And maybe remember that children come into these places too to look around, try to  be an example or at least keep all that stuff your talking about in Do not Disturb.

It's really simple.

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Thanks for moving it hh :) Appreciated.

Maybe the original post should be moved into Do Not Disturb?

I think threads should be moved if they are misclassified from the start, but not if someone posts a comment that's not in keeping with that specific board - it's not fair to the person who originated the thread.  In terms of the I'm Drunk thread, we could have directed the dangers of drinking conversation over here earlier than we did.

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Thanks for moving it hh :) Appreciated.

Maybe the original post should be moved into Do Not Disturb? as it's a bit disturbing how many people are contributing to an industry that is that cause of SO MUCH suffering and violence, you would think people who don't take of honey would understand a bit. And what is with twisting my words around? And to the original poster, you do know it's not healthy to be drinking that much alcohol, I'm sure and if you had true friends instead of laughing with you they would ask you what is wrong and let you know it's not something you should be doing, it's a bad habit and nothing good will come out of it. So you go save the bees and I will live in my 'life time TV drama movie' about what alcoholism can do to people. And maybe remember that children come into these places too to look around, try to  be an example or at least keep all that stuff your talking about in Do not Disturb.

It's really simple.

Wow, don't you come across as friendly...
Anyways, I'll ask some questions (read them as neutral, I'm looking for information, not trying to get at anyone, I just don't believe in active ignorance being a good thing):
When I'm drinking my pint of:
carlsberg/grolsch/heinikin/other vegan friendly beers, in what was is this causing suffering?
Is there a slave trade that I am not seeing?
Is there some animal abuse behind the scenes?
Are these alcohol companies owned by nestlé, coke, or another bad company (note to anyone reading, some drinks are owned by, I think, coke and P&G, definitely some by unsavoury characters).
Is there something I'm missing with you talking about bee's? Are bee's being harmed in the production of these products? (my knowledge of bee's is limited).
It is up to children who they look upto, and they are not the OP's responsibility.
What do you mean by alcoholism? Because as far as I can tell the OP isn't an alcoholic.

What's so simple?

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Too many problems are caused by alcoholism (my childminders' husband was an alcoholic so I saw some of the abuse first hand). Just not worth it. I have drunk alchopops in the past but, very rarely, and I stopped because I could feel myself getting dumber, and I hated the feeling.

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hey LilyRoze: I cannot stand neo-prohibitionists. The point of drinking alcohol is to get tipsy, and if some people cross the line from tipsy to drunk, it's their business, and does not need to be controlled from outside forces, unless the person is an alcoholic. Alcoholics need rehab. Regular people who are not alcoholics binge drink sometimes, and it's not that big a deal.
If you don't drink, that's a personal choice. If you do, that's also a personal choice.  Pushing your views on other people is all kinds of fucked up.

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hey LilyRoze: I cannot stand neo-prohibitionists. The point of drinking alcohol is to get tipsy, and if some people cross the line from tipsy to drunk, it's their business, and does not need to be controlled from outside forces, unless the person is an alcoholic. Alcoholics need rehab. Regular people who are not alcoholics binge drink sometimes, and it's not that big a deal.
If you don't drink, that's a personal choice. If you do, that's also a personal choice.   Pushing your views on other people is all kinds of fucked up.

When people are doing things that negatively effect others then you have to have the more responsible members of society step in and make a decision for them. By your logic we shouldn't encourage veganism because it's a 'persons choice'. Binge drinking is a big problem in the UK, especially with teenagers and young adults. This causes disruptive behaviour, violence, and requires police and ambulances to be at the ready, especially on Friday nights and Saturday nights. In the UK, the majority of Accident and Emergency cases on Friday and Saturday nights are related to alcohol consumption.

Why should people have to suffer long waiting periods, stress and aggravation because of someone's 'personal choice'? There are some things that the 'personal choice' excuse does not cut it.

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When people are doing things that negatively effect others then you have to have the more responsible members of society step in and make a decision for them. By your logic we shouldn't encourage veganism because it's a 'persons choice'. Binge drinking is a big problem in the UK, especially with teenagers and young adults. This causes disruptive behaviour, violence, and requires police and ambulances to be at the ready, especially on Friday nights and Saturday nights. In the UK, the majority of Accident and Emergency cases on Friday and Saturday nights are related to alcohol consumption.

Why should people have to suffer long waiting periods, stress and aggravation because of someone's 'personal choice'? There are some things that the 'personal choice' excuse does not cut it.

The basis of this conversation is that a grown adult who rarely drinks got drunk in his own place and LilyRoze was giving him shit for it.

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Yes, and what if he'd done something stupid due to his drunkeness? Let alone ruin his body. People will always be effected. My dad drinks a lot. Even though he rarely get's drunk, it's doing his body no favours and that in turn effects me because he could end up with damage within the body.

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Your view is pretty consistent with the views of all of the other children of alcoholics.  Those of us who grew up in households where alcohol wasn't abused have a different viewpoint.  And never the two shall meet.

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Your view is pretty consistent with the views of all of the other children of alcoholics.  Those of us who grew up in households where alcohol wasn't abused have a different viewpoint.  And never the two shall meet.

as a member of a family riddled with alcoholics including a parent, i disagree. i'm sure you're right that many adult children of alcoholics have ruziko's viewpoint, but not all. i recognize that i have no control over what someone else puts in their body, whether it's alcohol, drugs, smoke, meat, etc., and i have no desire to. it's a shame and sometimes hard to see and even makes me angry now and then. but forcing someone to change is futile. and what's "too much" and when it's a "problem" is completely subjective, so how can we regulate it?

By your logic we shouldn't encourage veganism because it's a 'persons choice'.

there's a difference between encouraging veganism and enforcing it. likewise, you can encourage someone to stop drinking so much or go to rehab for alcoholism, but you can't enforce it. and it wouldn't stop the issue if you did. people will drink anyways and success rates for rehab are much lower when court ordered.

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Restatement:  Of the people who have participated in the discussion thus far on vegweb, there is a divide of viewpoint based on family history, save dirtypinkskirt.  (Although, as of the posting, my original statement was correct.)

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hey LilyRoze: I cannot stand neo-prohibitionists. The point of drinking alcohol is to get tipsy, and if some people cross the line from tipsy to drunk, it's their business, and does not need to be controlled from outside forces, unless the person is an alcoholic. Alcoholics need rehab. Regular people who are not alcoholics binge drink sometimes, and it's not that big a deal.
If you don't drink, that's a personal choice. If you do, that's also a personal choice.  Pushing your views on other people is all kinds of fucked up.

When people are doing things that negatively effect others then you have to have the more responsible members of society step in and make a decision for them. By your logic we shouldn't encourage veganism because it's a 'persons choice'. Binge drinking is a big problem in the UK, especially with teenagers and young adults. This causes disruptive behaviour, violence, and requires police and ambulances to be at the ready, especially on Friday nights and Saturday nights. In the UK, the majority of Accident and Emergency cases on Friday and Saturday nights are related to alcohol consumption.

Why should people have to suffer long waiting periods, stress and aggravation because of someone's 'personal choice'? There are some things that the 'personal choice' excuse does not cut it.

You misunderstood, I didn't say we shouldn't encourage people to drink responsibly, I just meant that I don't think extreme measures should be taken to control people who drink. I like to get drunk, and my actions don't affect anyone but myself. I'm not saying this is true for everyone, but it seems to me that Lily was implying that occasional excessive drinking needs to be PREVENTED by force. That's ridiculous. There isn't exactly a reliable cutoff point for what is excessive and what isn't. I am 5'2 and weigh 110 pounds. I am absolutely WASTED after three beers, and I would not want somebody telling me that I cannot drink three or four beers if I so choose.
I don't get into fights, yell at anyone, engage in any promiscuous behavior, drive, or make any other unwise choices, aside from maybe falling asleep on someone's sofa every once in a while. It's just not as clear cut an issue as you think it is.

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